Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

Panama Papers and the biz jet

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

Panama Papers and the biz jet

Old 5th Apr 2016, 04:28
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 36
Panama Papers and the biz jet

https://panamapapers.icij.org

Over 2 terabytes of leaked info.
Summary: Rich people don’t like paying tax.

The Panama Papers leaks contain over 11. 5 million documents, involving over 200,000 offshore shell companies.

I can only imagine that as the leaks continue to be published, the true identity and owners of lot of the P4, VP and M- registered biz jets will be known. Or at least it will point in the right direction of who’s pulling the strings. Hiding behind a shell company does not seem to be a safe option anymore.

What is your take on this story? Are you even surprised? How do you think it will affect the biz jet scene?
spitfire_sl is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2016, 12:36
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Europe mainly
Posts: 68
Maybe that finally gives us some idea how VistaJet could sustain that long on the market and underpricing everyone else all the time ?
Delta12 is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2016, 13:11
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 732
Are you saying their is more than one Flohr in their plan?
Deep and fast is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2016, 07:36
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: cardiff
Posts: 61
Think you'll find an awful lot of high profile Russian financing of larger business aviation concerns.....
controlx is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2016, 08:31
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 44
Buying aeroplanes, large or small, has always been one of the most effective ways to move 'money' around the globe and obscuring the ultimate ownership of an aircraft (or even a fleet) is fairly straightforward. It's a lot easier to move a plane from one jurisdiction to another and flog it, than it is to move that house in Eaton Square. Many a billionaire have had stakes in all facets of aviation - airline fleets as well as business aviation assets. Ultimate mobile investment. Better than boats too.
Avioactive is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2016, 09:54
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Greater London Area
Posts: 166
What is your take on this story? Are you even surprised? How do you think it will affect the biz jet scene?
First to your questions. No, I am not surprised about the number of companies, but I am surprised of the actual outcome of the leak, more down below. No, I strongly believe it will not have a big effect on biz jet business, maybe not even noticeable.

Lets keep it straight. There was a network (I never heard off before, so maybe no better then the shell company business in terms of public transparency) of more then 400 journalists with their editorial staff and whole whistleblower network, which worked on more then 11m documents in 2.6 terabyte of data from over 200,000 companies for over a year(!), scanning over 14.000 people involved and what did they come up with, after all that investigation power? Public name picking and the statement that they don't even know whether there was a single illegal action example. Yes, I am surprised.

I meet the guys doing international and fast business every day and their business highly demand quick business foundation and low company lifetimes for projects. I never dared to think about their activities really in detail, but I am surprised that such investigative power of maybe beyond thousand man-year does not reveal a single big bang scandal. There are not many parts of a society, which would withstand such an investigative power. Just think what would happen in your hometown of 14.000 people investigated by 400 journalists for a year, or what would happen to your local bank, if journalists would scan the bank accounts to find hints for illegal action? Would they find - nothing - and start name picking of the major and the council members?

This may just be a big media bubble. I hope to be proven wrong, but until examples pop up ...

Last edited by Fly4Business; 6th Apr 2016 at 10:07.
Fly4Business is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2016, 10:39
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
Classic!
Are you saying their is more than one Flohr in their plan?
Now on the topic: it is about time that these SPC are all clear and out in the open... It never stops amazing me that the little shop around the corner that is struggling is paying the full whack tax wise while the Amazons, Starbucks pay next to nothing just like these Oligarchs and you name it.

It will hurt our business as I have not been on an aircraft yet that was not owned by an offshore SPC....
Global_Global is offline  
Old 6th Apr 2016, 19:52
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 53
Posts: 2,329
Summary: Rich people don’t like paying tax.
Not only them, I don´t LIKE paying taxes either. Questions is, can I avoid the miserable "thing" ? No I can´t, they can and do.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 00:16
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: London
Posts: 23
Originally Posted by Delta12 View Post
Maybe that finally gives us some idea how VistaJet could sustain that long on the market and underpricing everyone else all the time ?
Congratulations, you're an idiot.

How does wealthy people hiding tax mean anything to VistaJet or Thomas Flohr? It means a lot to the tax payer, but a wealthy person avoiding tax doesn’t mean this tax goes to VistaJet.

Perhaps VistaJet is just good at what it does? Ever considered that?
RedTree is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 03:36
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 66
Posts: 3,332
Lower the tax rates in the US and Europe and much of the problem goes away. High tax rates are the incentive to hide money. OTOH, tin pot dictators will steal from their victims, I mean citizens and need to hide their ill-gotten gains.

GF
galaxy flyer is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 07:23
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Greater London Area
Posts: 166
@GF: it is not only rates, it is speed as well. In certain countries it takes too long to do i.e. a project company and once it is founded, you don't get rid of it after use easily. When doing a 6 month project with a dedicated company, in certain "developed" countries it takes 6 to 9 month in advance to do the foundation and at least 12 month further running the zombie after declaring end, so you have at least three annual accounts filing limbos and bureaucracy, for half a year of real work. Until somebody finds a way to reduce such stupid administration overhead, there is a need for the fast and easy way.
Fly4Business is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 08:06
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bishop's Stortford
Posts: 44
Re the comment on setting up shell companies to help move some money around the globe and how long it takes to process those and then close them down, it is the case that certain offshore aircraft registers can incorporate an aircraft onto those registers in 24 hours, that's a pretty damn fast way of transferring a multi-million dollar asset from one place to another.
Avioactive is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 08:54
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
Lower the tax rates in the US and Europe and much of the problem goes away.
Well if we ALL pay our normal share of taxes the overall taxes rate could go down... Now the large group with the least pays the highest percentage while the ones with the most pay the least...
Global_Global is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 09:36
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 53
Posts: 2,329
Lower the tax rates in the US and Europe and much of the problem goes away. High tax rates are the incentive to hide money.
Nope, not true IMO. The rich ***** will ALEAYS try to avoid taxes, no matter how low they are.

Have a look at Amazon, just as an example, they were able to negotiate a 0.9% tax rate in Luxembourg for their european ops. Still they undercut pay rates etc.

In the EU, we need to get rid of the tax havens. That Ireland, Netherlands, Malta and Luxembourg for starters.

And any politician granting them special rates (such as a certain Mr. Juncker) need to go to jail and the key on that cell needs to be thrown away.

BIG TIME:
His dudeness is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 09:42
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Greater London Area
Posts: 166
Well if we ALL pay our normal share of taxes the overall taxes rate could go down... Now the large group with the least pays the highest percentage while the ones with the most pay the least...
? No, the large group of about the lower half of the citizens does contribute less then 10 percent to total tax income and the top 10 percent pay well above half of all taxes. There is a very, very small group of wealthy people that are hard to measure by employee views, because almost all of them are self employed/company owners. If you look at their tax load you have to combine the view on company taxes plus individual taxes and if you do so, you will have quite some surprises how much this group spends for taxes, because their entrepreneurs actions are taxed twice. They also take personal risk as entrepreneurs to an extend no ordinary employee will ever accept. The discussion should better be done on a holistic view and picture will change dramatically. I cannot count how many of my friends always take my turnover as self-employed for comparison to their salary as a dependent employee and that is simply wrong and Apples to Pears. In a "democracy" voters are purchased by tax money and these are cheaper on the low end, because only the number counts.

Last edited by Fly4Business; 7th Apr 2016 at 10:03.
Fly4Business is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 10:15
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Korea
Posts: 108
Every pilot employed on a business jet is part of some food chain involving some tax-heaven.
Some pilots work for dictators, some for oligarchs, some for shrewd businessmen, some for criminals, some for sportspeople, politicians. Some politicians are member of all those groups mentioned.
Some business jet pilots are employed by honest entrepreneurs. I guess it's the very small minority.
Panama-gate will take some of those folks down. We will hear from some of our pilot-colleagues that their airplane is grounded and for sale. Russian sanctions, war in Ukraine, economy in China, decline in oil price and the associated demise of bizav (in Turkey, as one example)...now Panama!
I would not throw stones at our bosses and the way they conduct their business.
space-shuttle-driver is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 11:16
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 53
Posts: 2,329
As far as I can see into it -our airplane belongs to a "big stock" company - we haver never in the last 9 years made a "private" flight as far as I can tell and I have even to report what catering for which passengers has been bought, which is deducted from the allowances of these passengers. I could be wrong, but I honestly doubt that in our case and in fact all of the aircraft around us on our home base there is a possible tax avoidance. (as they have similar schemes for the catering and whatnot) One of the I think now 12 jets on our little airfield is foreign registered, all the rest is D and for our airplane I know for sure that is was paid for from the regular account of our company. All of them are owned by German companies and none has changed ownership as far as I can tell.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 14:56
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Sky
Posts: 329
? No, the large group of about the lower half of the citizens does contribute less then 10 percent to total tax income and the top 10 percent pay well above half of all taxes.
Those are too different things: it is about the rate they pay:

The Buffett rule
The so-called Buffett rule refers to billionaire investor Warren Buffett. In 2011, he famously pronounced that he paid only 17.4 percent of his taxable income in federal income taxes, a lower percentage than any of his 20 employees. He proposed that federal tax rates be raised for taxpayers making more than $1 million.
This is what will make the rich richer and the poor poorer... The PERCENTAGE that they can keep from their income after tax is different and hence there will always be a faster asset growth on the top end regardless of the AMOUNT they pay.
Global_Global is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 15:35
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 41
Posts: 476
Every pilot employed on a business jet is part of some food chain involving some tax-heaven.
Some pilots work for dictators, some for oligarchs, some for shrewd businessmen, some for criminals, some for sportspeople, politicians. Some politicians are member of all those groups mentioned.
Some business jet pilots are employed by honest entrepreneurs. I guess it's the very small minority.
Panama-gate will take some of those folks down. We will hear from some of our pilot-colleagues that their airplane is grounded and for sale. Russian sanctions, war in Ukraine, economy in China, decline in oil price and the associated demise of bizav (in Turkey, as one example)...now Panama!
I would not throw stones at our bosses and the way they conduct their business.
While we may benefit from being paid by these people - that salary then re-enters the 'real' economy and is taxed in the normal way.

I sleep very soundly at night thanks.
Globally Challenged is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2016, 15:59
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Europe mainly
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by RedTree View Post
Perhaps VistaJet is just good at what it does? Ever considered that?
Paying peanuts to their workforce ? Guess they are good at it
Delta12 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.