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Part NCC Stuff

Old 3rd Mar 2016, 17:45
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Part NCC Stuff

Hi All

What with all the changes coming into force soon it seems FAA ATP's pilots will not longer be able to fly private aircraft based in the UK.

I know of someone in this situation and could anyone advise the easiest route for them to be able to continue to fly their Private Jet (Multi Crew) based out of the UK, it is a purely private operation so just really looking at the quickest cheapest option.

Spam
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Old 3rd Mar 2016, 20:39
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If the owner agrees to register the operation outside Europe, set-up a foreign operator, e.g.:

In the US:
Our best advised solution ~ USA Flight Operators

or in Morocco:
Problem | Papa Charly Aviation Ltd

Should the owner not wish that solution, a licence conversion is most likely to be the only other option.
I heard today that the April 8 deadline could be further delayed by another year or more though.
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Old 4th Mar 2016, 10:31
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Let's wait for the Brexit
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Old 6th Mar 2016, 01:02
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Third Country FCL issues more than likely delayed (see https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33...ice2016024.pdf) still to be confirmed, delay date TBA, the CAA claim they know nothing so far

Part NCC is another animal, slated for August (??) unlikey to be a delay there...
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Old 18th Mar 2016, 14:42
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Part NCC
Having now attended a workshop it did appear that there are quite a few details that don't seem to have been highlighted which could affect Operators. I won't even go into the amount of paperwork, auditing, and compliance required.

For third country registered aircraft when you sign the declaration you are agreeing to comply with PART NCC regulations anywhere in the world. So you could end up flying a US registered aircraft in the US but having to comply with both FAR's and EASA. "Hopefully" if any conflicts and you take the most restrictive you "should" be OK.

On the 26th August you would have to apply the FTL and Factored Runway of the State of Operation as at the moment EASA have not created any rules. When they do you would have to comply. At the moment, and I'm not a pilot, this would not seem to cause an issue for private operations.

It seems possible that under Part NCC, to use the US aircraft example, you could not use a freelance US pilot, in the US, on a US aircraft unless they had EU licences! Maybe I'm wrong.

I do wonder what other details are hidden in the legislation as I'm not a lawyer.

However, no choice it has to be done
Mike Echo

Last edited by Mike Echo; 18th Mar 2016 at 15:29.
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 04:26
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It seems to me that many companies offering workshops / legal seminars etc. are trying to use FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) to convince private aircraft to buy their (management, in this case) services - despite that, in my opinion, nothing will happen for the next several years at least. Remember EU-ETS?
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Old 20th Mar 2016, 08:52
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It seems to me that many companies offering workshops / legal seminars etc. are trying to use FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) to convince private aircraft to buy their (management, in this case) services
Absolutely.

In this context: EASA will soon offer a template OM-A for non complex NCC operators. For free. If you attend the AERO in EDNY and the seminar by AOPA, then this might be of interest:

https://aopa.de/aktuell/ops-ncc-do-i...-der-aero.html

Several German soon-to-be-NCCs have teamed up with AOPA and IDRF (Interessengemeinschaft der regionalen Flugplätze - the german association of regional airports), EASA, the swedish CAA and the German LBA and have crafted a template OM-A, which is right now circulating within EASA for final comments. This OMA will be EASA compliant and thus a national CAA will hardly be able to reject it. It is high time that we (NCCs) participate way more in these matters, as the lobbyists do "plough their fields". EBAA are of now help, as they are - IMHO - hopelessly on the side of management companies and donīt want small ops to survive.

Last edited by His dudeness; 20th Mar 2016 at 09:24.
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Old 21st Mar 2016, 14:38
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Totally Agree with the F.U.D. and have already had offers of "help" for quite eye watering sums of money. It's not that that bothers me too much but what I don't want is for our aircraft to be grounded and having to explain it to our owner without him being briefed.
I'm not convinced, like Booglebox, that nothing will happen as it is the best opportunity for years for EASA to jump on and regulate the Third Country Operators but I'm getting old and cynical.
The Isle of Man and now AOPA are producing templates for their operators but none of the other Authorities that I know are.

EBAA do seem to act more like an association for Management Companies but I'm at a loss how NCC's could work together

Interesting times over the next 6 months.
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Old 21st Mar 2016, 15:39
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but I'm at a loss how NCC's could work together
We took some money in our hands, employed a guy to write the manual and are involve ourselfs - that means to attend meetings and cross read the manual as it evolves and give our input towards EASA and the author. Our experience is that the national CAAs and EASA are quite thankful to get some feedback and involvement. They often simply donīt know how and what we do. Lufthansa is always there, BigAirlines and the likes - we are not. Our fault.

We NCCs have allowed wicked people like the EBAA to speak for us way too long and part of the problems in terms of overregulation is clearly our fault as we have not involved ourselfes. NetJets and others surely are represented (thru EBAA, have a look at their member list). Ask yourself why there is the plan to make 48 hrs of sim training mandatory within 3 years.
Hint: the guy who sits in several committees for GAMA is also working for Flight Safety....

Lets face it: thats how things are done in our new brave world.


I can say, the German AOPA guy, Michael Erb and the guy from IDRF, Thomas Mayer, are a massive help and both are "pushers" towards less regulation and regs that make sense. NOW is a critical time - involve yourself.

And let me add one thing: most of "us" have no idea what comes at them and seem to think we need "approval" - we donīt. You do give a statement to the CAA, thats it. Of course you need to be able to back that statement up with a structure.
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Old 21st Mar 2016, 20:33
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It is high time that we (NCCs) participate way more in these matters, as the lobbyists do "plough their fields".
The whole NCC process, albeit messy, was started to create a level playing field and get rid of the cowboys who think they know best (" We have done it like that for years! so why do we need to change")... So if the industry is cleaning things up themselves than it will become even easier. And it is about time as I have seen too often attitude win over reason in our side of the industry and even worse seen too many owners push the pointy end to do stuff they shouldn't be doing

We will slowly see the flags of conveniences being pushed out and it is only waiting for the rules on economical ownership on off shore entities to be pushed through and we almost become a normal industry

Even with all these goodies of IDRF to be handed out like manuals etc: DO NOT sign the letter of compliance before getting proper legal advice! The only one who will be happy when YOU sign it is your boss... And as long as the aircraft is owned through a leasing structure or an off shore entity YOU will be screwed if anything happens not your boss. So either get a pay raise or the best insurance in town but do not sign the letter unless you have talked to a lawyer (hint: if your boss pays the lawyer it might not be the right one for real independent advice. Another hint: if your lawyer does something else and aviation on the side he is not the guy to talk to!)
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 04:45
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All regulation and laws are developed with the best intentions. NCC is a adoption of ICAO ANNEX 6 and all EASA has done is adopt it. The FAA has flat out ignored it and smaller countries will implement it.
What really upsets me is the capilization of all safety related regulation in industry today.
For example the Health and Safety industry is a billion plus money pit that does nothing more than apply common sense. i.e. Signage to hold a hand rails using stairs.

This is what exactly happened here, a good intention has spurned a huge industry, and companies and individuals are now looking to capitalize on the regulation. An example, is the now retired CAA experts that can go and consult.

I personally agree with NCC and what it can offer but authorities should be mandating a formula that we can all use to help us implement and pass on to the owners, because that is what they want. Cowboy outfits are usually instances of bosses ruling the operation.

Management companies have basically seen this as a blank check. This does not mean that there operations are safer and better than most of the one man bands. What they offer is a broad scope compliance, but these things are as only as good as the people following the regulation. All paper can be fudged what happens in real life is completely different. If they wanted to regulate we would have an inspector on every flight in the jump seat, or on the floor.
What I have learned, especially from Europe, is that they take regulation and dump it in the industry and wait for the waves to stop. They have no idea of the ramifications and damage they do.
What will NCC do? Basically it will be another paper, dust gathering exercise that will cost money to operations and shrink the industry further.
The die hards, as myself will do all we can to comply and do it cost effectively but there will come a time where it will dawn in the owners that owning and flying privately is not cost effective and operationally effective and give it all up as a bad idea.

Being part of an organization like EBAA is nothing more than a marketing tool for mangament and AOC operators and the standard line from these people, who you pay a huge membership fee to, is to use a management company.
We don't have a combined voice is because we are a motley crew of, in house owner operators that want to be left alone and do our thing. We don't want to be part of a bigger voice, as we like the small and quiet existence we lead, inconspicuous!

As I am part of a handling company as well, I have the advantage of seeing the different types of operations come though, and let me tell you, the private guys are always more professional and more courteous and there equipment and operation, better than the AOC and mangaged (multi crew) operations.
They seem to take more pride and care of there passengers and equipment than guys that are just there as pilots in a seat.
That's my observation and opinion so don't get all heated if you don't agree.
We can moan about what's happening and we an even push back but it will just make your life miserable.
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 07:17
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When you think how so many non-EU registered aircraft drift around Europe and in and out of Europe with ostensibly no definitive 'home base' country, how on earth does a national civil aviation authority within the EASA zone track and monitor who is and who isn't based in their territory of responsibility? 90% of the time, they won't have a clue how to even contact the operator, let alone the owner of such jets with most being on registers of convenience, leased by one party to another, managed by someone else, titled to a different entity etc. etc.

Would love to see the UK CAA try and call up the bloke in charge of that Aruban/Isle of Man/Guernsey/Cayman etc. etc. jet, owned ultimately by a Russian, operated say by some Swiss outfit and spending much of it's life around London, to see if they've declared their Part-NCC compliance - good luck mate! And if they do wander over on the ramp one day at Luton to ask the crew, 'where are you based?' they just say 'USA', 'Dubai', wherever.....certainly not in Europe.
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Old 22nd Mar 2016, 08:23
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We don't have a combined voice is because we are a motley crew of, in house owner operators that want to be left alone and do our thing. We don't want to be part of a bigger voice, as we like the small and quiet existence we lead, inconspicuous!
Well said, but in todays environment we canīt sustain this attitude.

As I am part of a handling company as well, I have the advantage of seeing the different types of operations come though, and let me tell you, the private guys are always more professional and more courteous and there equipment and operation, better than the AOC and mangaged (multi crew) operations.
They seem to take more pride and care of there passengers and equipment than guys that are just there as pilots in a seat.
Having done both, I agree. AOC operators have a tendency to be real cheap fukcs and this reflects on every aspect in the operation. If one tries to go the extra step as a pilot, heīll often end up on the toes of somebody else. been there, done that...
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Old 1st Apr 2016, 14:49
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Hi there

Got a job offer on a N plane, "based" in Europe (the hangar is in Europe...) flying worldwide, American AOC, part 91.

Timing is pretty bad with this Part NCC coming in force in a August

Will this plane be able to continue its operations or not ?
With FAA pilots ?
I can't found the answer, some say yes, others no...
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Old 1st Apr 2016, 15:56
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Part 91 AOC. Are you sure ?
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Old 1st Apr 2016, 19:16
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That's what i've been told.
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Old 1st Apr 2016, 22:13
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To paraphrase a recent email i received from a learned friend......CAA ..... Third Country Licensing.......EASA.......Part NCC........Left Arm......Right Arm.......Elbow........Arses.......Nuff said.

For the sake of a laugh (not very funny), call the CAA FCL lot and ask them about the Bilateral Safety Agreement and the delay re having to possess a validation if you are a third country licence holder......"Err...the bilateral what.....uh? I, erm.....we at the CAA......errr.....sorry, third country eh? Validation for erm....huh??"

HOPELESS ...... bloody hopeless!! Oh well, its not like I have a separate OPC check ride lined up for the 9th April, in order to get a validation or anything.....oh!! THANKS oh ye profit making CAA!!!!

Bunch of
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Old 1st Apr 2016, 23:58
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this is confusing, indeed...
I come from easa land.

So if you fly under part 91, you can NOT have an AOC.
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Old 2nd Apr 2016, 05:39
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Part 91 is private operations. It covers private aircraft of all types, from Pipers up to A380s if they are operated privately, that is if the operator does not "hold out" for hire. If I were to advertise flights online or in any medium in an aircraft, as an AOC does, I should need to be a part 135 operation.
A part 91 operation and an AOC operation are two completely different things.
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Old 2nd Apr 2016, 10:52
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Ok, and this part 91 operations are under the radar of the Easa.

This is the problem...

Will a N plane based in europe be able to operate withh FAA pilots after August ?
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