GLEX not able to land in foggy airprot
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GLEX not able to land in foggy airprot
I'm not a pilot but very interested in aviation.
Two days ago a Global Express manufactured in 2000 had to holding for one hour before diverted.
All others aircrafts could land without problem. RVR was about 400m.
Could anyone explain to me why this ?
Thanks
AS2000
Two days ago a Global Express manufactured in 2000 had to holding for one hour before diverted.
All others aircrafts could land without problem. RVR was about 400m.
Could anyone explain to me why this ?
Thanks
AS2000
Well the Global is certified for CAT II operations as is the Challenger. You do not need a HUD or EVS to be certified CAT II.
We are going through the process of getting the crews certified for CAT II at our company.
We were told by the management company two years ago (at least) that we would work with TC to get EVS certified on the Global in Canada... So far nothing!
We are going through the process of getting the crews certified for CAT II at our company.
We were told by the management company two years ago (at least) that we would work with TC to get EVS certified on the Global in Canada... So far nothing!
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DEEC is right that many operators and owners just won't go through the hassle and cost of getting crew and operation qualified for lower minima. Having said that, I know for a fact that some aircraft owners will only go with management companies that will be able and willing to get them Cat II, and some even cat III qualification.
CP
CP
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Just a Wild Guess, But...
After some thought, I have to go with the others who suggest that the pilot(s) were not CAT-II current or certified. A nice ticket to have, but as noted, it is not often needed for routine, well planned biz jet operations.
My only question here is why they chose to hang around for an hour before diverting. In such a situation that seems like a huge waste of time and fuel. Given the aircraft's modest size/weight, suitable diversion airports should not be difficult to find.
My only question here is why they chose to hang around for an hour before diverting. In such a situation that seems like a huge waste of time and fuel. Given the aircraft's modest size/weight, suitable diversion airports should not be difficult to find.
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if the boss in the back instructs to hold for an hour and hope for an improvement, that's what you do! I once flew a London-Stockholm Bromma only to find the airport closed due to very heavy snowfall. Pax did not want to proceed to the alternate, Arlanda, because the trains were not running either and they would never make their meeting by landing there.
We entered the hold for some 30 mins and then the message from the boss was to fly back to London as their meeting just got cancelled (due to the wx conditions on the road). As we tankered fuel out of London, there was plenty of it for the return.
We entered the hold for some 30 mins and then the message from the boss was to fly back to London as their meeting just got cancelled (due to the wx conditions on the road). As we tankered fuel out of London, there was plenty of it for the return.
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If I have a day where plan A is looking a bit iffy, I always try and offer the boss a plan B (both safe), and leave it up to him to decide.
So often I have seen Captains (usually airline retirees) make a significant decision affecting the service (such as a diversion) without even keeping the boss in the loop, and that is a recipe for a very unhappy client.
So often I have seen Captains (usually airline retirees) make a significant decision affecting the service (such as a diversion) without even keeping the boss in the loop, and that is a recipe for a very unhappy client.
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Normally airline retirees are the safer bizjet pilots because they follow normally the rules a touch more to the point which is not a bad thing in terms of safety. Of course that pisses of the client. But normally I ask them(after I divert) what they prefer - being dead at the (or close to) planned destination or safe and well at the alternate and then driving save wherever they want. Never got a bad reply on that.
And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current).
I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only.
We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only. Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS.
Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice
And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current).
I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only.
We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only. Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS.
Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice
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Normally airline retirees are the safer bizjet pilots because they follow normally the rules a touch more to the point which is not a bad thing in terms of safety. Of course that pisses of the client. But normally I ask them(after I divert) what they prefer - being dead at the (or close to) planned destination or safe and well at the alternate and then driving save wherever they want. Never got a bad reply on that.
And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current).
I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only.
We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only. Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS.
Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice
And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current).
I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only.
We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only. Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS.
Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice
They certainly are not as loyal if you are anything to go by, as all of your other posts seem to be looking for airline jobs with the likes of Turkish.... I hope you find an airline job, as there is no room for people like you in corporate.
You keep smiling in your little bubble in that CL850 of yours until that day. At least it only flys 1500-2500 nm. That's plenty for the other crew members to have to put up with your attitude.
@ Commuter0815... All I can say is LOL...
"Normally airline retirees are the safer bizjet pilots because they follow normally the rules a touch more to the point which is not a bad thing in terms of safety."
Now that's BS if I have ever heard it... Although I will not generalise the situation some of the worst pilots I have seen come to corporate aviation are ex-airline pilots (and ex-military). They simply couldn't cope with all the "go on the fly" situation of flying a business jet. Also keep in mind most airline pilots are well surrounded and supported in the airline world and many decisions are taken for them by dispatch and in some airlines they don't even have a say (or very little) on de-icing their aircrafts.
"Of course that pisses of the client. But normally I ask them(after I divert) what they prefer - being dead at the (or close to) planned destination or safe and well at the alternate and then driving save wherever they want. Never got a bad reply on that."
This must be the most stupid statement I have read in a long time. If you were a smart corporate pilot, you would have discussed the situation with the main passenger prior to takeoff and given him the possibilities and options. In our operation (almost 25 years) if a situation came down to not going into the airport of destination, 3 things could happen...
1- Delay the flight until the weather gets better.
2- Fly to the alternate if it is convenient for them.
3- Cancel the flight.
"And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current)."
I don't know how many business jets are CAT 1 only but the Challenger and the Global are both certified CAT II aircrafts. I'm pretty sure the Gulfstreams and Falcons are too. Yes there is additional cost for crew training but that can be easily added to any recurrent training at a proper training facility.
"I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only."
HUGS? I assume you mean HUDS? Anyway they are not required for a CAT III approach IIRC. Many of the older airliners with autoland did not have HUDS. As for your comment on the same type you flew in the airlines and now in the corporate world, do you mean the B737 BBJ? If so why did Boeing not certify its BBJ to CAT III minimums?
"We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only."
Not so, see above, perhaps the crew but not the aircraft. BTW, I do not find the Global's cargo hold that small for its size. I have seen a lot smaller ones for the size of the aircraft.
"Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS. Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice."
Well here's another stupid comment...
Seriously, how many business jet owners (especially the ones that can afford a Falcon 900, G550, G650 or Global) want to fly in an airliner full of people he doesn't want to be around with? How many of those owners want to be stuck to an airlines schedule? How many of those owners want to fly to a big airport when they can go where they want when they want?
Airliners = public transportation like city buses while a business jet = private limo and if I had their money there is no doubt which one I would choose.
On your comment about bad weather ops, how many airports are certified CAT II let alone CAT III? These airports are usually in major cities sometimes way out of the way of where the owners with these business jets want to land.
You can keep your pig of a BBJ... It is slow, so slow and it flies low, too low and your always in the winds and turbulence which you cannot out climb. Oh I forgot to mention your pressurization sucks too! Try landing your BBJ at a small airfield with minimal ramp space.
Now that's BS if I have ever heard it... Although I will not generalise the situation some of the worst pilots I have seen come to corporate aviation are ex-airline pilots (and ex-military). They simply couldn't cope with all the "go on the fly" situation of flying a business jet. Also keep in mind most airline pilots are well surrounded and supported in the airline world and many decisions are taken for them by dispatch and in some airlines they don't even have a say (or very little) on de-icing their aircrafts.
"Of course that pisses of the client. But normally I ask them(after I divert) what they prefer - being dead at the (or close to) planned destination or safe and well at the alternate and then driving save wherever they want. Never got a bad reply on that."
This must be the most stupid statement I have read in a long time. If you were a smart corporate pilot, you would have discussed the situation with the main passenger prior to takeoff and given him the possibilities and options. In our operation (almost 25 years) if a situation came down to not going into the airport of destination, 3 things could happen...
1- Delay the flight until the weather gets better.
2- Fly to the alternate if it is convenient for them.
3- Cancel the flight.
"And yes, most bizjets are CAT I only because of the costs for aircraft and plus additional crew training(and keep them current)."
I don't know how many business jets are CAT 1 only but the Challenger and the Global are both certified CAT II aircrafts. I'm pretty sure the Gulfstreams and Falcons are too. Yes there is additional cost for crew training but that can be easily added to any recurrent training at a proper training facility.
"I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only."
HUGS? I assume you mean HUDS? Anyway they are not required for a CAT III approach IIRC. Many of the older airliners with autoland did not have HUDS. As for your comment on the same type you flew in the airlines and now in the corporate world, do you mean the B737 BBJ? If so why did Boeing not certify its BBJ to CAT III minimums?
"We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only."
Not so, see above, perhaps the crew but not the aircraft. BTW, I do not find the Global's cargo hold that small for its size. I have seen a lot smaller ones for the size of the aircraft.
"Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS. Sometimes first class major airline might be the better choice."
Well here's another stupid comment...
Seriously, how many business jet owners (especially the ones that can afford a Falcon 900, G550, G650 or Global) want to fly in an airliner full of people he doesn't want to be around with? How many of those owners want to be stuck to an airlines schedule? How many of those owners want to fly to a big airport when they can go where they want when they want?
Airliners = public transportation like city buses while a business jet = private limo and if I had their money there is no doubt which one I would choose.
On your comment about bad weather ops, how many airports are certified CAT II let alone CAT III? These airports are usually in major cities sometimes way out of the way of where the owners with these business jets want to land.
You can keep your pig of a BBJ... It is slow, so slow and it flies low, too low and your always in the winds and turbulence which you cannot out climb. Oh I forgot to mention your pressurization sucks too! Try landing your BBJ at a small airfield with minimal ramp space.
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 5th Jan 2016 at 12:55.
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We have as well Globals(with their tinly little cargo hold, lol)and as well they are CATI only. Not so premium anymore when it comes to bad weather OPS.
Extract from AFM:
1. INTRODUCTION
The GLOBAL EXPRESS® model BD 700−1A10 airplane has been shown to meet the airworthiness requirements for Category 2 Operations contained in Appendix 1 of AC 120−29 and Subpart 2 of JAR−AWO.
Compliance with these performance standards does not constitute approval to conduct Category 2 operations.
Meaning that your operation resp. your pilots are not CAT II approved/rated and therefore, to use your words, are not so premium
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wrong..
hi - you´re not right on your statement:
"I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only."
HUGS? I assume you mean HUDS? Anyway they are not required for a CAT III approach IIRC. Many of the older airliners with autoland did not have HUDS. As for your comment on the same type you flew in the airlines and now in the corporate world, do you mean the B737 BBJ? If so why did Boeing not certify its BBJ to CAT III minimums?"""
HUGS - Head up guidance system - (BBD terminology)
CRJ200 is approved for CATIIIa ops without autopilot and without autoland -it´s a verly reliable system.
CAT II: our CL850 is CAT II approved since 2010, as well as the Global -
apart from lower minima, this gives you more choices for alternate planning as well (flying both..)
rgds
welle
"I used to fly the same type of AC in airline ops as I do now for a huge bizjet operator, airline was CATIIIA with HUGS and now we are back in the stone age with CATI only."
HUGS? I assume you mean HUDS? Anyway they are not required for a CAT III approach IIRC. Many of the older airliners with autoland did not have HUDS. As for your comment on the same type you flew in the airlines and now in the corporate world, do you mean the B737 BBJ? If so why did Boeing not certify its BBJ to CAT III minimums?"""
HUGS - Head up guidance system - (BBD terminology)
CRJ200 is approved for CATIIIa ops without autopilot and without autoland -it´s a verly reliable system.
CAT II: our CL850 is CAT II approved since 2010, as well as the Global -
apart from lower minima, this gives you more choices for alternate planning as well (flying both..)
rgds
welle
Last edited by Welle; 5th Jan 2016 at 12:21. Reason: typo
@ Welle...
"CRJ200 is approved for CATIIIa ops without autopilot and without autoland -it´s a verly reliable system."
This is true and I believe even some Dash 8s with the same HUD system could do CAT IIIs.
This is true and I believe even some Dash 8s with the same HUD system could do CAT IIIs.
