Best Exec Jet for the Job - Help!
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ATC
I know of a nice converted A320 which can be had for a song with only 8 of them and lowish fuel it will go in there
Only joking but really need his purchase budget and especially with those three trips a week running/fuel costs will be a major factor as well as maintenance
pace
I know of a nice converted A320 which can be had for a song with only 8 of them and lowish fuel it will go in there
Only joking but really need his purchase budget and especially with those three trips a week running/fuel costs will be a major factor as well as maintenance
pace
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A shoestring operation?
Getting your mission profile analysed online by a group of people who might be more knowledgeable about skateboards - then you've probably hit the nail on the head.
Getting your mission profile analysed online by a group of people who might be more knowledgeable about skateboards - then you've probably hit the nail on the head.
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Hourly operating costs of 45 jets compared
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LGW
Getting your mission profile analysed online by a group of people who might be more knowledgeable about skateboards - then you've probably hit the nail on the head.
Getting your mission profile analysed online by a group of people who might be more knowledgeable about skateboards - then you've probably hit the nail on the head.
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Getting your mission profile analysed online by a group of people who might be more knowledgeable about skateboards - then you've probably hit the nail on the head.
So I wonder who the Skateboard refers too
The poster or people trying to give advice on incomplete detail?I am thinking of renting some hours on a cirrus to do some SEP again after flying jets exclusively. I would love my own personal CJ1 but cannot afford it
So I think a starting point is what can they afford? and what aircraft can complete that mission within the price they can afford ? There is no point in promoting jets which cost $7 to $10 Million to purchase and $4 to $5 thousand an hour to run if their budget is $2 million to purchase and $1700 an hour to run? They will both complete the mission albeit the one with far less comfort
So if the poster said they want to pay $2 million but may go up to $4 million for the right aircraft and want to budget for X in running costs at least we have something to work on ? at present no clue $1 2 5 10 20 million ? no clue
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Nov 2015 at 13:08.
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Vulture, have a read.
http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com...he-blame-game/
But you knew that already, right ?
http://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com...he-blame-game/
But you knew that already, right ?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
His dudeness
Great article, thank you.
Great article, thank you.
Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help so far!
wanabee777 - Thanks for that info. I already have fairly detailed operating cost and annual budget breakdowns for the aircraft on the list. It's interesting to compare the AOPA numbers with what I have.
For the others who are looking for budget numbers.....well I didn't give a budget because it has nothing to do with the question I asked. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I am looking for opinions on aircraft from an operational standpoint, not financial (obviously within reason). We already have access to the numbers.
I'm looking for information on:
- How the aircraft might stand up in a humid/salty environment (thanks McDoo for your note on the Sovereign's corrosion)
- Realistic range with full payload (which is not as easy to to find as we all know brochure numbers are optimistic)...will it make 1500nm every time with 8 guys on board?...how about with 7?
- General reliability for regular use
- Whether parts / service will be a nightmare (e.g. How's maintenance on a Hawker these days?)
- Any other boogymen in the closet
Rest assured, nobody will be dropping any cash before calling in the professionals, but as an exploratory exercise.... I figured I could start by asking some of the folks who operate them day-in day-out. Financials aside, the pilots should know a thing or two about the capabilities and flaws of their ships no?
Thanks
wanabee777 - Thanks for that info. I already have fairly detailed operating cost and annual budget breakdowns for the aircraft on the list. It's interesting to compare the AOPA numbers with what I have.
For the others who are looking for budget numbers.....well I didn't give a budget because it has nothing to do with the question I asked. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but I am looking for opinions on aircraft from an operational standpoint, not financial (obviously within reason). We already have access to the numbers.
I'm looking for information on:
- How the aircraft might stand up in a humid/salty environment (thanks McDoo for your note on the Sovereign's corrosion)
- Realistic range with full payload (which is not as easy to to find as we all know brochure numbers are optimistic)...will it make 1500nm every time with 8 guys on board?...how about with 7?
- General reliability for regular use
- Whether parts / service will be a nightmare (e.g. How's maintenance on a Hawker these days?)
- Any other boogymen in the closet
Rest assured, nobody will be dropping any cash before calling in the professionals, but as an exploratory exercise.... I figured I could start by asking some of the folks who operate them day-in day-out. Financials aside, the pilots should know a thing or two about the capabilities and flaws of their ships no?
Thanks
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Dave
You are talking 3000 NM round trips 3 times a week ? thats 7 hrs roughly per trip so to be simple lets say 20 hrs a week or a massive 1000 hrs a year
lets be really optimistic as you mentioned some shorter 200 nm jumps and say 700 hrs a year at $4000 an hour your trips will cost you Ģ2.8 million PA for a decent midsize jet and between 6 to 10 million purchase price
The very uncomfortable Citation ultra!!! longer trips because its slower so work 750 PA or $1.2 mill costs and $2 mill outlay
Of course if you are flying into 100 KT headwinds the Ultra won't get there in one and you may have to splash and dash somewhere (done it many times flying a 550) but some PAX like to stretch their legs and get a coffee but add 1 hour to the trip time but it won't happen that much
So it still comes down to what the business can justify for the returns by using the jet
I stress before anyone pulls the above to pieces very rough figures
Pace
You are talking 3000 NM round trips 3 times a week ? thats 7 hrs roughly per trip so to be simple lets say 20 hrs a week or a massive 1000 hrs a year
lets be really optimistic as you mentioned some shorter 200 nm jumps and say 700 hrs a year at $4000 an hour your trips will cost you Ģ2.8 million PA for a decent midsize jet and between 6 to 10 million purchase price
The very uncomfortable Citation ultra!!! longer trips because its slower so work 750 PA or $1.2 mill costs and $2 mill outlay
Of course if you are flying into 100 KT headwinds the Ultra won't get there in one and you may have to splash and dash somewhere (done it many times flying a 550) but some PAX like to stretch their legs and get a coffee but add 1 hour to the trip time but it won't happen that much
So it still comes down to what the business can justify for the returns by using the jet
I stress before anyone pulls the above to pieces very rough figures
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Nov 2015 at 17:06.
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Thanks for that Pace.
For argument's sake....Let's assume the utilization gets pulled back to a more realistic 300-500 hours per year. 2-3 trips per week was a bit of an overreach I think.
DB
For argument's sake....Let's assume the utilization gets pulled back to a more realistic 300-500 hours per year. 2-3 trips per week was a bit of an overreach I think.
DB
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I do fly Sovereigns and that is a very capable airplane, 8 Pax plus luggage 1500 nauticals is a no brainer, one would be able to tanker fuel if so desired. (ones dest cheap, other expensive...)
Corrosion...there are some Sovs here in Europe that suffer badly from Corrosion, others donīt. Cessna says, thats due to the environment friendly deicing stuff we use in Europe. No issues on ours but for the Gear that was partly corroded on the inside (Shocks!) after 8 years. Airplane has been checked and then sprayed with CorBan, seems to work fine.
Still there is a Phase 42, corrosion check every 6 months.
Every airplane will suffer from humid and salty plus warm air.
The Hawker I hear is a full seat, full tank airplane capable of going 2300-2500nm and there are plenty around.
One thing not to underestimate if you operate where you say you want to: aircondition. Works pretty well on the Sov after 2 SBs.
Corrosion...there are some Sovs here in Europe that suffer badly from Corrosion, others donīt. Cessna says, thats due to the environment friendly deicing stuff we use in Europe. No issues on ours but for the Gear that was partly corroded on the inside (Shocks!) after 8 years. Airplane has been checked and then sprayed with CorBan, seems to work fine.
Still there is a Phase 42, corrosion check every 6 months.
Every airplane will suffer from humid and salty plus warm air.
The Hawker I hear is a full seat, full tank airplane capable of going 2300-2500nm and there are plenty around.
One thing not to underestimate if you operate where you say you want to: aircondition. Works pretty well on the Sov after 2 SBs.
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Hawker 800XP or Hawker 1000 is probably all the aircraft you will ever need. Fleet is well supported too - because they built them for years, mainly.
Should be able to get a good one for $3-4m, and i'd be suprised if you didn't get a good lump of that back in 2 years when you realise that the three people that consistently get saddled with the sofa have started to put on a few pounds and are whining that it's not comfortable
Should be able to get a good one for $3-4m, and i'd be suprised if you didn't get a good lump of that back in 2 years when you realise that the three people that consistently get saddled with the sofa have started to put on a few pounds and are whining that it's not comfortable
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I'm probably crazy to even suggest it, but there is currently on Controller.com a corporate 737-200ADV with only 7,500TT for $2.5M, so you can probably pick it up for $2 or even a tad less. That's a lot of money left over for operating costs, and support should not be a problem....
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Stay away from the Hawker 1000. Although it does have extra baggage in the back...you wont be making 2-3 trips a week with any reliability. Dispatch reliability is significantly less than the 800XP.
It also has a few "problem areas" regarding Mx and parts that the 800XP does not have.
It also has a few "problem areas" regarding Mx and parts that the 800XP does not have.
If it had slightly longer legs I'd say a DO328-300, big, stand-up cabin, several FAA examples in VIP fit, but over 1300nm struggling. It's cheap ( very cheap for size and capability), with excellent P&W motors, but supporting it in the Caribbean might be a challenge, and sadly long out of production. Shame though!
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Reliable? Go for a CL850(CRJ200). Hard to kill this things as they are used to line operations. Much less downtime then a CL6XX or CL300.
As well very cheap to get this days. Range usually easy 1500NM, if you get one for LR ops with the tail tanks then realistic 2500NM(3000 NM in the shiny Bombardier brochure).
6000ft runways no problem , especially no high airports(which could bring a problem)in the caribean.
Other advantages - HUGE cargo hold, often even 2 toilts(1 fwd, 1 aft)
cheap to get(if you think you get a global cabin for peanuts). Pilot training easy(sims everywhere) and cheap.
Disadvantage: No slats, approach speeds up to 140kts at max landing weight(21205kg) or even a touch higher with 21319kg.
As well very cheap to get this days. Range usually easy 1500NM, if you get one for LR ops with the tail tanks then realistic 2500NM(3000 NM in the shiny Bombardier brochure).
6000ft runways no problem , especially no high airports(which could bring a problem)in the caribean.
Other advantages - HUGE cargo hold, often even 2 toilts(1 fwd, 1 aft)
cheap to get(if you think you get a global cabin for peanuts). Pilot training easy(sims everywhere) and cheap.
Disadvantage: No slats, approach speeds up to 140kts at max landing weight(21205kg) or even a touch higher with 21319kg.
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May I suggest the Gulfstream G200? Plenty of cabin room for 8 males, nice lav, and even though you mentioned relatively light luggage, the baggage compartment can fit almost anything you can throw at it (easily fits golf clubs and baggage for 8-10 people). Purchase prices are very reasonable and will become more so when the former NetJets G200's start hitting the market. Those aircraft will be higher time but fully refurbished and upgraded by Gulfstream, who has great product support.
Sure, those who haven't flown the plane will laugh at the notion of de-ice boots on a jet (which actually work great and don't affect climb performance like hot wings do on some aircraft) or the less than stellar runway performance (which wouldn't be much of an issue for your planned sea level, 6000+ foot runways at mid-weight even in hot temperatures). Gulfstream did address the shortcomings when they designed the G280; making a good airplane even better. G200 owners and passengers love the cabin (which is within an inch or two in height and width of the big Gulfstreams taking the dropped aisle into account) and it shows as the only major change with the G280 cabin was the addition of walk-through baggage compartment access.
Where the G200 really shines is the operating costs. It practically invented the super-midsized category, with a large aircraft cabin and mid-size aircraft fuel burn. The G200 will burn almost the same fuel as the Hawkers but with a much more comfortable cabin, especially with 8 guys. Plus a full size galley and no belted potty seat as there is room for 8-10 passengers in the cabin.
Sure, those who haven't flown the plane will laugh at the notion of de-ice boots on a jet (which actually work great and don't affect climb performance like hot wings do on some aircraft) or the less than stellar runway performance (which wouldn't be much of an issue for your planned sea level, 6000+ foot runways at mid-weight even in hot temperatures). Gulfstream did address the shortcomings when they designed the G280; making a good airplane even better. G200 owners and passengers love the cabin (which is within an inch or two in height and width of the big Gulfstreams taking the dropped aisle into account) and it shows as the only major change with the G280 cabin was the addition of walk-through baggage compartment access.
Where the G200 really shines is the operating costs. It practically invented the super-midsized category, with a large aircraft cabin and mid-size aircraft fuel burn. The G200 will burn almost the same fuel as the Hawkers but with a much more comfortable cabin, especially with 8 guys. Plus a full size galley and no belted potty seat as there is room for 8-10 passengers in the cabin.