Best Exec Jet for the Job - Help!

[DaviiB]

Hi All,

I'm doing a bit of research for a friend who's boss is looking into acquiring a used aircraft. It's still just talk at the moment, but I was hoping to get some opinions on various aircraft types for the following mission profile:

Base: Caribbean (humid + salty air). Hangared
Pax count: 6-8, Most, if not all male, relatively light luggage on most flights
Lav: Required
Stand up cabin: Nice, but not essential
Typical trips: Shortest - 200nm, Longest - 1300-1500nm (probably more longer flights than shorter)
Trip Frequency: 2 to 3 flights per week
Typical runway length: over 6,000ft

Any thoughts on what aircraft might fit the bill? I was thinking:

Citation Excel/XLS - Can't make the longer flights?
Learjet 45 - DOA?
Hawker 800XP - Maintenance support?
Hawker 1000 - same as above?
Older CL300?
Older Sovereign?

Does anyone have experience with the above types and / or anything else I may have missed?

Thanks!
DB

[winkwink]

Don't touch the 45. Cramped cabin for your payload and the most uncomfortable pilot seats EVER.

[dboy]

I agree with the previous poster. Seats are horrible in the cockpit and giving me pain in the back. Cabin itself is also small. If comfort is your goal, don't touch the Learjet. I heard that citation xls has a good cabin but range is indeed smaller. Is the Citation X perhaps an option?

[Above The Clouds]

More importantly what is his budget, it may open up more opportunities.

[DaviiB]

Thanks for the info so far!

I figured the 45 would be a no-go.

They haven't gotten too far into discussing acquisition costs as yet. More important to them right now is figuring out what type would get the job done consistently, and not be a huge pain to maintain, or crazy expensive to operate. Once we find the right tool(s) for the job, they'll look at costs to pick one up. No point in buying a cheaper aircraft if it doesn't do what you need it to.

The Citation X is nice to look at, but I get the impression that unless the only thing you're interested in is speed, there's not much point to acquiring one. Am I mistaken?

DB

[x933]

CL601 is probably not a bad match for that flying profile. Falcon 50 if you feel the need for three engines and can accept a smaller cabin. CL604 if the age of both of those put you off (a little bit overkill though). All can be had for less than $6m.

Hawkers are pretty much bullet proof and would be an ideal match were it not for the fact that with 8 people it's a bit of a squash. Falcon 50 and CL30 gives you 6 individual seats rather than 5, making the sofa mildly more tolerable for long flights.

[Booglebox]

Learjet 60?

[McDoo]

Originally Posted by Booglebox

Learjet 60?

For eight male pax?.......

[McDoo]

The Sovereign would look ideal on paper in terms of cabin size and range but don't even think of putting one into a humid maritime environment - the corrosion proofing simply isn't up to it.

You are right about the 800XP, the rear divan makes the longer flights very uncomfortable for 8 pax - other than that it would be a very affordable option, just make sure you get one that has had a recent E/F&G check.

CL30 sounds ideal to me, fits all your requirements and is a fairly simple machine to maintain.

Happy shopping

McD

[Above The Clouds]

Falcon 900 Dx Ex Lx or Falcon 2000 both will exceed everything you have listed, both have excellent short field, hot and high capability and of course the 900 will give you that 3 engine safety.

[McDoo]

Originally Posted by Above The Clouds

Falcon 900 Dx Ex Lx or Falcon 2000 both will exceed everything you have listed, both have excellent short field, hot and high capability and of course the 900 will give you that 3 engine safety.

Agreed, and the high MLW of the Falcons could come in handy if doing multiple sectors around Caribbean islands. Trouble is, the purchase budget has just gone through the roof
if they were originally looking at XL/Hawker/LJ45 type acquisition costs.
2000/900 would be nice though

[Pace]

dave

As you get bigger aircraft you talk old which makes me suspect that the budget is not high ?
This is often the problem with non aviation company directors they look at something and all great until you talk acquisition and running costs. Bigger and old means high running and maintenance costs

You mention that a stand up cabin is not needed so if the budget is low as I suspect and they could keep to 7 PAX with light luggage a Citation 5 Ultra has the range, low purchase and running costs and short field capability

But that is bottom of the pile if they just want a workhorse at minimum cost and can knock off one PAX
Lear 45 mentioned is horrendously expensive to operate

Pace

[DaviiB]

Regarding the comment on their budget. Right now, we're trying to narrow down the list to aircraft that will get the job done reliably. My mentioning older aircraft is due to my thinking the Supermids are a little too much airplane for what they're trying to do, and the only justification to get one would be a comparable purchase price (and not-extravagant operating costs...which is why we're not talking about the Falcon 20 ). It's a buyer's market right now isn't it?

I was looking at the Ultra actually, but can it make 1,300nm (likely into a bit of a headwind) with 7 on board? I've spoken to an Ultra pilot and he mentioned to me that they have to start looking really closely at anything over 1,000nm with a full boat (7 pax). How about the Citation VI or VII?

The Falcons are wayyy too much airplane for this IMO. I have access to a few....love them....wish they'd kept going in the midsize market, as we might have something to talk about then. Most of the runways in the Caribbean are 8,000+ feet. I don't see runway performance being an issue with any jet we look at, even in hot + wet conditions.

Just for giggles, how far can you get with 7pax on a Lear 60?

General wisdom is to purchase something that will do 80% of your required missions, then charter for the last 20%, but there's not really anything in the area to charter, so charter costs will be really high to get a larger / longer range aircraft out of Florida (positioning to the opposite end of the Caribbean).

I think the 800XP might be the one to beat on this. They may have to suck it up when taking 8 pax, but it seems to be a pretty big leap to the CL300 (which I think is quite a bit more airplane than they need).

Thoughts?

DB

[space-shuttle-driver]

i) What's your budget? If 7m or above, then go for the CL300. It will fulfil all the specifications given by yourself, and the DOCs are comparable to the Hawker.

ii) your 2-3 trips/weeks with the given stage lengths means that the airplane will fly around 300h/year, right. You'll want to have some sort of dispatch reliability then, right? As you are in the Caribbean, what brand's service center is within your reach? Chose accordingly!

[Proline21]

How about a new Embraer Phenom 300 or an used Embraer Legacy 600?

[Pace]

Dave 1000 miles?? You would have to have pretty awful headwinds for that in a Five Ultra. It should do 15000 nm with reserves in reasonable winds

They're real workhorses," he said. "They have the right combination of load, range, speed and short-field capabilities."

From Middle America, the airplane can hit either coast, most of the time without taking on fuel. The Ultra's maximum cruising speed is close to 430 knots. At maximum weights, it can take off in less than 3,200 feet and land and stop in less than 2,200. It will climb to 45,000 feet at a blistering 4,100 feet per minute and carry two pilots and six passengers 1,960 nautical miles (no wind) and a full load
of eight passengers somewhat shorter distances. (An advertised ninth seat is the belted potty. If you've been reading my articles, you know I believe aircraft marketers are overreaching when they claim that those or other varieties of padded shelves are real seats.)

IMO the range quoted above is optimistic long range but work on 1500 nm

[733driver]

I would strongly advise against doing 3 hour trips with 7 pax in a light jet (Citation Ultra, Phenom 300 or similar) on a regular basis. It really is not pleasant. And right on the limit of what they can do.

The minimum should be a mid size, and it needs to be long enough to be comfortable with more than 6 pax.

Better yet: I guess a Falcon 2000 Classic can be had for 5 or 6 million these days? Haven't checked, though.

[Above The Clouds]

Really this is a pretty pointless exercise without more detail and thats up to the poster to add?

Agree with Pace without more info everyone is wasting their time.

Sounds to me a bit like a shoestring operation looking for the biggest cheapest aircraft that will ultimately cost a fortune in maintenance, especially the older Citation VI and VII not to mention limited simulator facilities. One minute we discussing stand up cabins then Citation Ultra's

[Pace]

733driver

Agreed but the poster said stand up cabin not required and bigger jets would have to be older which means crippling running costs so he really needs to indicate what sort of purchase budget they have as well as what running costs they will stomach
The Ultra on his typical 1300 to 1500 NM legs will comfortably do that and will carry those PAX with as he said light luggage albeit not in the greatest comfort compared to a Midsize but then they can pick one up for lass than $2million and get low running costs and 6000 feet is comfortable at grosse. If they are happy to pay $8 to 9 million great look at midsize but I doubt it )) beggars cannot be choosers.
3 trips a week of 3000 nm round trip and running costs on older midsize jets will be horrendous

Pace

[Above The Clouds]

He also said a LAV is required, from memory the 500 Citation series have a Lav that is serviced via the cabin and not externally, after 7-8 pax on a 1000nm + flight ? no thanks, external servicing definitely a requirement.