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KingAir crash near Chigwell?

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KingAir crash near Chigwell?

Old 10th Oct 2015, 15:35
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Id hazard a guess that unfortunately there wont be any radar record. Cant imagine for one moment Stapleford have got radar and might well have been too low for london (essex?) SSR pick up. Although an IFR clearance presumably given prior to departure they wouldnt have been handed over to get their clearance to enter controlled airspace with their squawk identified by the time it all went wrong...i guess.
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 15:39
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Hopefully there will be radar feeds from Northolt, Stanstead and London City, no hand over required if the xpnd was on.
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 15:42
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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You reckon it would paint at just a few hundred feet? I really dont know ..hope so anyway
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 16:13
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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I recall City still having me displayed on one foul winter night at 150 feet on final for 04, so I doubt coverage being an issue.
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 16:28
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel

from the training manual, just so we can put this one to bed (unless there was serious contamination)

FUEL DRAINS
There are five sump drains and a firewall fil- ter drain in each wing. Drain locations are shown in Table 5-1.
LIMITATIONS
APPROVED FUEL GRADES AND OPERATING LIMITATIONS
Commercial Grades Jet A, Jet A-1, and Jet B, and Military Grades JP-4 and JP-5 are recom- mended fuels for use in the Super King Air 200 and B200. They may be mixed in any ratio.
Aviation gasoline Grades 80 Red (formerly 80/87), 91/98, 100LL Blue (same as 100L Green in some countries), 100 Green (formerly 100/130), and 115/145 Purple are emergency fuels. Emergency fuels may be mixed with recommended fuels in any ratio. However, when aviation gasoline is used, operation is limited to 150 hours between engine over- hauls. The number of gallons taken aboard for
each engine divided by the engine fuel con- sumption rate equals the number of hours to be charged against time between overhauls (TBO).
The pilot must be familiar with the consump- tion rate of his airplane and record the num- ber of gallons taken aboard for each engine.
It is recommended that the pilot refer also to the Limitations chart in the POH concerning standby boost pumps and crossfeed opera- tions when aviation gasoline is used.
Takeoff is prohibited if either fuel quantity gage indicates less than 265 pounds of fuel or is in the yellow arc.

I would also take this opportunity to defend a very well respected contributor to these forums who floated an idea based on his very considerable experience. Whilst it is true that some engines are extremely sensitive to mis-fuelling, the PT6 happens to be a very robust creature, and ... as we all know especially in the complex world of aviation, nobody knows everything at any one given moment. Everyone is fallible, and it is when one believes otherwise that stuff happens.
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 16:38
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel

One thing a PTA wont like or certainly the FCU is a load of Prist Gunk getting sucked into a pump, FCU or engine. Having worked for a Company where a citation FCU failed on taxi which was directly contributed to the congealed prist blocking it, I know Fuel or the water in the fuel and the resulting mess prist makes can be a big issue..

A checks of course should drain this...
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 17:00
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Much discussion on fuel, but given the proficiency of the crew unlikely this could have been a causal factor. On the evidence so far available, it points towards inability to control the aircraft very soon after it became airborne. Assuming a/p was engaged after t/o, could elevator trim failure be more indicative of loss of control.
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Old 10th Oct 2015, 17:07
  #128 (permalink)  
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Littco

It is usually the way it is added! Spray cans were the best as it spray fed into the fuel on filling but they were a pain and tedious

Many are now pour cans and its very tempting to tip the lot in one go.

Fuelers won't touch the stuff normally but saw one filling an aircraft where the crew were still sorting paperwork inside the aircraft he filled it then poured the tin of Prist in afterwards

it is pretty lethal stuff if not added carefully

Assuming a/p was engaged after t/o, could elevator trim failure be more indicative of loss of control.
Its unlikely that the autopilot would be engaged until the aircraft was fully cleaned up. Takeoff flap is usually the last to go and not till 400 feet agl so AP not till 500 feet or later. No PAX and just crew and its fun time to hand fly so maybe much higher than that. First sign of a control problem and auto is the first to disconnect

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 10th Oct 2015 at 18:21.
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 01:38
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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If someone checked th static systems for water ( by opening the drain valves by the right hand seat) and left them open, you would get decaying airspeed and altitude indications as the cabin started to pressurize after the squat switches went to 'air'.

Would be very hard to recover in the soup...
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 03:39
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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@ Above the clouds.
You quote my public profile which is factual but at least I have one unlike you who gives no information. Remember 'sarcasm is the lowest form of wit'.
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 06:27
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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LASJayhawk
If someone checked th static systems for water ( by opening the drain valves by the right hand seat) and left them open, you would get decaying airspeed and altitude indications as the cabin started to pressurize after the squat switches went to 'air'.
A very good point; If memory serves me right it has an alternate pitot/static source switch on the right side of the cockpit but I don't recall if the B200 has a static drain system, if they do, would it use the "Curtis" type drain.

If that is the case they should have been modified so as not to lock open, but anything is possible.
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 17:52
  #132 (permalink)  
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I am not a Kingair pilot and was referring to the Citations I fly )
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 19:30
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Normal takeoff is flaps zero in a King Air 200
Sure ? The 40% position is called "Takeoff and Approach" acc. to Beech (checklist) and FSI one would use flaps 40% for normal takeoffs...

This bird wasn´t Raisbecked...fitted with the Rausbeck Kit, no flaps T/Os are the norm.

If someone checked th static systems for water ( by opening the drain valves by the right hand seat) and left them open, you would get decaying airspeed and altitude indications as the cabin started to pressurize after the squat switches went to 'air'.
Thats a maintenance function, thus it should be documented...

On a side note, many years ago our hangar neighbor had found a nice little yellow plastic cap fitted to the alternate source opening in the hellhole of his B200 after maintenance... would have been "interesting" if the alternate source would have been needed.
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Old 11th Oct 2015, 23:45
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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They are toggle type valves, so they can be locked open. Most interiors the cover plate will not go back on if the valves are open, but I have seen some that would.

I'll take some pictures tomorrow if I can remember.

Eta: drawing from IPC


Last edited by LASJayhawk; 12th Oct 2015 at 00:01.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 11:10
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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LASJhawke
They are toggle type valves, so they can be locked open. Most interiors the cover plate will not go back on if the valves are open, but I have seen some that would.
Oh dear I hope not, especially combined with "Noiffsorbuts" comment earlier in the thread.

Noiffsorbuts
For what its worth I agree with Above the clouds and i think instrument failure perhaos a failed attitude indicator or blocked pitot giving false speed reading are the most likely explanation.....on the little information we presently have. i have to say that the view from locals is that maintenance issues may well be in focus....
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 19:09
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Tom Clements article in the Sept 15 King Air magazine was on pitot static issues, and he relates having it happen to him once (MX leaving the drain valves open)


Side note, you notice there are 3 drain valves, pilots, copilot so, and alternate. If they are all left open, about all you can do is dump the cabin.
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Old 12th Oct 2015, 20:43
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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And how did he say the pitot static issue affected the AH?
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 02:11
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Wouldn't effect the horizon, but static ports open to cabin or if the ports were covered would give a decaying airspeed on both sides.

In the soup, what do you trust? Would you maintain 10 degrees nose up and hope you don't stall, or push the nose over and try to gain airspeed?
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 03:48
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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Well, last time it happened to me in a B200 immediately after liftoff a dark and stormy night I trusted the AH. It was found out to be a crack in the edge of the glass on ASI face.

Last edited by compressor stall; 13th Oct 2015 at 07:33.
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Old 13th Oct 2015, 07:30
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Very interesting to see the quality and knowledge of the contributors to this thread and how some possible scenarios are emerging...
One area understandibly under focus by the AAIB will be the maintenance history of this aircraft.
Since entering GA after many years working in Airlines i have come to accept as a fact of life that the tech log never tells even half the story. In making this comment I am not suggesting the subject operator is any different to others..no better or worse.....but "putting it in the tech log" is generally regarded as treason ( unless parked up at a maintenance facility with the days work completed) and i have seen more than once "offenders" being managed out of the company at the first opportunity.
I nearly flew a small cessna jet into the sea due to a faulty glide slope receiver....exactly the same had happened previously but nothing had been put in the book for the above reasons. As a result my routine pre flight inspection of the tech log did not alert me to a possible issue...even if no fault had been found.
We used to put entries " for information purposes only" in the tech log but were told not to do so because such would need to be written off by an engineer before flight.
The result is that intelligence about history of grumbling niggles ( and a well used old aircraft like this will be full of them) is not disseminated in a readily accessible way. You can bet your bottom dollar that the true history of this aircraft will only be reconstructed by looking at long e mail threads and questioning pilots and engineers about verbal exchanges.
The relatively inexperienced captain had only been on line with the company a short while and I just wonder how far, if at all, the innate deficiency in dissemination of essential technical information through the tech log from one crew to another might have made its contribution to this disaster. ( as one of the many holes in the swiss cheese that all lined up on the fateful day)
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