KingAir crash near Chigwell?
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It is this lapse in time from something not showing right and the brain working out what and acting correctly in that!
It's ok if you have plenty of air below the aircraft but critical if you are IMC close to the ground!
I don't know about others but on early morning flights we can roll out of bed and be up at the airport 30 minutes later entering a cold aircraft often in the dark!
I hate that transition from being in sleep mode to wham everything is happening at once and the brain being expected to be in supercharge mode! When it's still probably stuck in the in bed mode 30 minutes earlier ))
It would be interesting to know whether that gap in something going wrong and the brain working out what extends on first flight of the day early morning ?
Pace
It's ok if you have plenty of air below the aircraft but critical if you are IMC close to the ground!
I don't know about others but on early morning flights we can roll out of bed and be up at the airport 30 minutes later entering a cold aircraft often in the dark!
I hate that transition from being in sleep mode to wham everything is happening at once and the brain being expected to be in supercharge mode! When it's still probably stuck in the in bed mode 30 minutes earlier ))
It would be interesting to know whether that gap in something going wrong and the brain working out what extends on first flight of the day early morning ?
Pace
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"It would be interesting to know whether that gap in something going wrong and the brain working out what extends on first flight of the day early morning ? "
A thought provoking question by PACE.
Humans are normally diurnal, that is to say active during the day, with circadian (24 hr biological clock) rhythm. There has been some medical research carried out under the banner of "chronotype".
It all seems very scientific and complex.
Not much there to help us to get an idea whether a morning lark type might be best for dawn flights and a night owl for dead eye flights.
After all the aviation industry, through the means of FTL have largely dealt with this matter.
Given the wx conditions on that fateful morning it would be reasonable to assume that the crew would have been fully alert, prepared to handle a t/o in reduced visibility and deal with any emergencies they may encounter, in accordance with their experience and training. There would ahve been the right level of adrenaline pumping around in their bodies. Whatever went wrong, must have been something which was outside and beyond their expectations, their knowledge, their training and experience. An event or a series of events, unexpected and not anticipated. Neither the early hour of the day, n`or the wx conditions would have altered the outcome. They were aware of both and were equipped to deal with these. Whatever occurred must have been so quick that even the so called sober as a judge could not have handled it. Yes some judges do appear to be asleep through most of the proceedings in their courtrooms, but it is only their eyes that are shut, their ears don`t miss a sigh or a murmur.
So I do not really think that a few early morning yawns could have been a factor.
A thought provoking question by PACE.
Humans are normally diurnal, that is to say active during the day, with circadian (24 hr biological clock) rhythm. There has been some medical research carried out under the banner of "chronotype".
It all seems very scientific and complex.
Not much there to help us to get an idea whether a morning lark type might be best for dawn flights and a night owl for dead eye flights.
After all the aviation industry, through the means of FTL have largely dealt with this matter.
Given the wx conditions on that fateful morning it would be reasonable to assume that the crew would have been fully alert, prepared to handle a t/o in reduced visibility and deal with any emergencies they may encounter, in accordance with their experience and training. There would ahve been the right level of adrenaline pumping around in their bodies. Whatever went wrong, must have been something which was outside and beyond their expectations, their knowledge, their training and experience. An event or a series of events, unexpected and not anticipated. Neither the early hour of the day, n`or the wx conditions would have altered the outcome. They were aware of both and were equipped to deal with these. Whatever occurred must have been so quick that even the so called sober as a judge could not have handled it. Yes some judges do appear to be asleep through most of the proceedings in their courtrooms, but it is only their eyes that are shut, their ears don`t miss a sigh or a murmur.
So I do not really think that a few early morning yawns could have been a factor.
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With the funerals now happening over the next few days one wonders how long before there is any official word by way of a preliminary report on what happened....?
There are questions to be answered, lessons to be learned and most probably blame to be apportioned.
It serves no ones interests, least of all the relatives of the deceased in finding closure to have to wait when , without any doubt, the AAIB will already have a pretty good idea about what happened and why.
There are questions to be answered, lessons to be learned and most probably blame to be apportioned.
It serves no ones interests, least of all the relatives of the deceased in finding closure to have to wait when , without any doubt, the AAIB will already have a pretty good idea about what happened and why.
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Noiffsorbuts
In the UK death in service benefits are commonly calculated at two or three times annual salary depending on the scheme and whether the employee is part of the company pension plan. This is quite usual.
In the UK death in service benefits are commonly calculated at two or three times annual salary depending on the scheme and whether the employee is part of the company pension plan. This is quite usual.
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........which hardly scratches the surface of the financial impact of loss of their breadwinner that the unfortunate families will suffer.
If this is a maintenance issue then the families will be in the frame for very substantial compensation over and above that meagre sum.
If this is a maintenance issue then the families will be in the frame for very substantial compensation over and above that meagre sum.
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........which hardly scratches the surface of the financial impact of loss of their breadwinner that the unfortunate families will suffer.
If this is a maintenance issue then the families will be in the frame for very substantial compensation over and above that meagre sum.
If this is a maintenance issue then the families will be in the frame for very substantial compensation over and above that meagre sum.
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With sad and final respects now paid to two much liked and highly regarded professional colleagues we now demand straight answers.
Serviceable aircraft with good crews do NOT fly directly into the ground on take off.
So if anyone out there knows something that might help provide answers Please will you speak to the AAIB. They will one hundred percent guarantee confidences and are still looking for answers themselves.......you owe it to yourselves and your colleagues surely. They want to hear from you.
Serviceable aircraft with good crews do NOT fly directly into the ground on take off.
So if anyone out there knows something that might help provide answers Please will you speak to the AAIB. They will one hundred percent guarantee confidences and are still looking for answers themselves.......you owe it to yourselves and your colleagues surely. They want to hear from you.
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Noiffsorbuts
You say the investigators are at a loss ?
I would have thought the traces would have offered a lot of indication ?
The track of the aircraft! The speeds ? It's vertical profile ?
Was the aircraft on a normal climb out or did it level off low level? What was the descent point? Was it a gradual decent or abrupt descent ?
There is so much the trace profiles can tell
Pace
You say the investigators are at a loss ?
I would have thought the traces would have offered a lot of indication ?
The track of the aircraft! The speeds ? It's vertical profile ?
Was the aircraft on a normal climb out or did it level off low level? What was the descent point? Was it a gradual decent or abrupt descent ?
There is so much the trace profiles can tell
Pace
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Air Moorea Twin Otter Crash
I've just finished watching the Air Crash Investigation programme on Air Moorea 1121 near Tahiti. There are some remarkable similarities.
Things started to go badly wrong for the single pilot just after flap retraction. He made a pitch-up correction to maintain the climb, the elevator control cable snapped and the aircraft dived into the sea.
Many cables had been snapped in the crash but it was discovered that the critical one had been previously worn to just a few strands. This had not been helped by the aircraft being regularly parked in an area affected by jet blast at Tahiti airport. The elevators were routinely left locked in the down position. This put extra strain on the wires as the jet-blast hit.
I noticed only a brief reference to this type of event from Sammysu and it might be worth more discussion in this area. It would come in the category of 'catastrophic airframe failure' I think.
Things started to go badly wrong for the single pilot just after flap retraction. He made a pitch-up correction to maintain the climb, the elevator control cable snapped and the aircraft dived into the sea.
Many cables had been snapped in the crash but it was discovered that the critical one had been previously worn to just a few strands. This had not been helped by the aircraft being regularly parked in an area affected by jet blast at Tahiti airport. The elevators were routinely left locked in the down position. This put extra strain on the wires as the jet-blast hit.
I noticed only a brief reference to this type of event from Sammysu and it might be worth more discussion in this area. It would come in the category of 'catastrophic airframe failure' I think.
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I've just finished watching the Air Crash Investigation programme on Air Moorea 1121 near Tahiti. There are some remarkable similarities.
Things started to go badly wrong for the single pilot just after flap retraction. He made a pitch-up correction to maintain the climb, the elevator control cable snapped and the aircraft dived into the sea.
Many cables had been snapped in the crash but it was discovered that the critical one had been previously worn to just a few strands. This had not been helped by the aircraft being regularly parked in an area affected by jet blast at Tahiti airport. The elevators were routinely left locked in the down position. This put extra strain on the wires as the jet-blast hit.
I noticed only a brief reference to this type of event from Sammysu and it might be worth more discussion in this area. It would come in the category of 'catastrophic airframe failure' I think.
Things started to go badly wrong for the single pilot just after flap retraction. He made a pitch-up correction to maintain the climb, the elevator control cable snapped and the aircraft dived into the sea.
Many cables had been snapped in the crash but it was discovered that the critical one had been previously worn to just a few strands. This had not been helped by the aircraft being regularly parked in an area affected by jet blast at Tahiti airport. The elevators were routinely left locked in the down position. This put extra strain on the wires as the jet-blast hit.
I noticed only a brief reference to this type of event from Sammysu and it might be worth more discussion in this area. It would come in the category of 'catastrophic airframe failure' I think.
https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...pdf_022814.pdf
One year today - still no word from the AAIB.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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According to AAIB website, publication due this month.
Thanks for that!
Just had a call from a friend who for various reasons is already party to the report. I understand the delay in publication.
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https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...in_10-2016.pdf
The individual report publication will be later today...
The individual report publication will be later today...
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The report raises more questions than it gives answers. Pretty inconclusive and much speculation due to total destruction and absence of cvr and fdr.
Report makes reference to systemic and clearly deliberate attempt by use of "engineering e mails" to avoid tech log entries and the consequent strictures of the MEL. It observes that as a consequence ( of the 197 e mails they saw) there were occasions when the aircraft had been operated with long standing defects, which if properly recorded, would have grounded it until rectification..........
Report makes reference to systemic and clearly deliberate attempt by use of "engineering e mails" to avoid tech log entries and the consequent strictures of the MEL. It observes that as a consequence ( of the 197 e mails they saw) there were occasions when the aircraft had been operated with long standing defects, which if properly recorded, would have grounded it until rectification..........
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The quote from the post-mortem referring to the evidence of an acute dissection of a coronary artery says 'if there is no other cause identified for the crash then it is both possible and plausible that this was the precipitating factor'. The Consultant Forensic Pathologist was of the opinion that 'it was both possible and plausible that the right seat pilot was holding the controls at the time of impact'. And the conclusion 'Incapacitation of the pilot, followed by an attempted recovery by the additional crew member, was a possibility consistent with the evidence and supported by the post-mortem report'.
Last edited by runway30; 13th Oct 2016 at 16:02.
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I don't think the report makes any statement that use of engineering email was a deliberate attempt to avoid tech log entries - the report observed that tech log entries we not made when they had been raised in emails.
The difference is subtle but significant.
The difference is subtle but significant.
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In these days of ARCs being signed off by the incumbent - I wonder how many ARC renewals this aircraft had gone through whilst these defects were open and not recorded in the tech log?
ARCs are about as useful as a Wyvern Approval.
ARCs are about as useful as a Wyvern Approval.
