Using Canada as an alternate for the US
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Using Canada as an alternate for the US
Hi,
The people we spoke to at CANPAS were slightly unsure about using, say, St John's, as an alternate to Bangor when heading westbound across the Atlantic
They suggested we could call on landing at Bangor and tell them that we weren't coming to St John's. The problem I see with that is that we'd be beyond the half hour allowed for delays.
We don't have a Satphone so can't call from overhead to say we're not coming.
We don't want any grief from immigration in either country and we didn't get what I'd call a definitive answer. Does anyone do this and is there a phrase or form of words to use with CANPAS to help them understand what we want? "Alternate" stumped them for about 5 mins.
The people we spoke to at CANPAS were slightly unsure about using, say, St John's, as an alternate to Bangor when heading westbound across the Atlantic
They suggested we could call on landing at Bangor and tell them that we weren't coming to St John's. The problem I see with that is that we'd be beyond the half hour allowed for delays.
We don't have a Satphone so can't call from overhead to say we're not coming.
We don't want any grief from immigration in either country and we didn't get what I'd call a definitive answer. Does anyone do this and is there a phrase or form of words to use with CANPAS to help them understand what we want? "Alternate" stumped them for about 5 mins.
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Do you have a dispatcher that monitors the flight, either in house or company like Universal, that can advise customs on your behalf?
Or could you get a Unicom freq. at the FBO in St John's and call them when you are in range to advise your intentions to relay to customs?
Or could you get a Unicom freq. at the FBO in St John's and call them when you are in range to advise your intentions to relay to customs?
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Jon,
CANPAS don't need to know about an alternate. If you use Irving for your FBO they are at both St Johns and Banger, just call them on VHF if you divert and they will call CANPAS for you and get the officers to cancel at Banger and meet you at St Johns. They are very helpful. You may have to wait for the Officers to get there from the main terminal or in town depends where they are.
CANPAS don't need to know about an alternate. If you use Irving for your FBO they are at both St Johns and Banger, just call them on VHF if you divert and they will call CANPAS for you and get the officers to cancel at Banger and meet you at St Johns. They are very helpful. You may have to wait for the Officers to get there from the main terminal or in town depends where they are.
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Either solution could work, but we are trying to avoid delays. CANPAS is quite explicit regarding advance notice - unless it's an emergency they want at least two hours notice of arrival.
Calling Irving would be OK as a one-off but since we aren't landing there and using their services, it's a bit of a cheek just to expect them to help us all the time.
Surely it can't be uncommon when crossing Eastbound to file KBGR but have CYYT up your sleeve in case the winds are stronger than expected, or some other issue forces a divert?
Calling Irving would be OK as a one-off but since we aren't landing there and using their services, it's a bit of a cheek just to expect them to help us all the time.
Surely it can't be uncommon when crossing Eastbound to file KBGR but have CYYT up your sleeve in case the winds are stronger than expected, or some other issue forces a divert?
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This is tricky. I'd say that if you think you can make it to BGR direct, then go ahead and if you need to divert, then divert. It may take some time to process you on the ground and CANPASS may give you hassle, but that's life.
If you think it's going to be quite tight to get to BGR and there is a high probability of diversion, then I'm going to give you a rather biased and possibly unhelpful answer: Make sure your flight plans are accurate and that you can trust them. If you or your provider sets up whatever software you use correctly, very high accuracy can consistently be achieved. Not to toot my own bugle but, as one example, the system that I use regularly produces plans for CJ / CJ1s that are within 5kts, 3min and 50lbs.
Sending your actual figures back to the guy who makes your flight plans is a good start. Over a few sectors (hopefully with different flight levels / power settings) some trends can emerge, and with this info the aforementioned guy - perhaps together with the flight planning software people - can tweak various settings in the system to make things more accurate. You can and should test the new settings on a "comfortable" sector to see how accurate they are (and adjust further as required). Then you have a product that you can really trust and rely on.
You could also specify extra reserves for the calculation, e.g. go from 30 to 45 or 45 to 60mins holding fuel.
Once this is done, you could ask for sample plans with various permutations of power settings and flight levels, so that you can get a handle on how much fuel you'll actually use to get to BGR directly. It's a good idea to do this at STD-48 or later so that the latest forecast winds are available for the flight planning system to compute with.
But if you really want YYT up your sleeve, then I think the only way to do it and stay compliant with the rules, without SATCOM, is to have a bloke on the ground (perhaps your trip support company, if you use one) watching you on FlightAware or your tracking website of choice. Once you (hopefully) zoom overhead YYT he would cancel CANPASS there.
Hope this helps!
If you think it's going to be quite tight to get to BGR and there is a high probability of diversion, then I'm going to give you a rather biased and possibly unhelpful answer: Make sure your flight plans are accurate and that you can trust them. If you or your provider sets up whatever software you use correctly, very high accuracy can consistently be achieved. Not to toot my own bugle but, as one example, the system that I use regularly produces plans for CJ / CJ1s that are within 5kts, 3min and 50lbs.
Sending your actual figures back to the guy who makes your flight plans is a good start. Over a few sectors (hopefully with different flight levels / power settings) some trends can emerge, and with this info the aforementioned guy - perhaps together with the flight planning software people - can tweak various settings in the system to make things more accurate. You can and should test the new settings on a "comfortable" sector to see how accurate they are (and adjust further as required). Then you have a product that you can really trust and rely on.
You could also specify extra reserves for the calculation, e.g. go from 30 to 45 or 45 to 60mins holding fuel.
Once this is done, you could ask for sample plans with various permutations of power settings and flight levels, so that you can get a handle on how much fuel you'll actually use to get to BGR directly. It's a good idea to do this at STD-48 or later so that the latest forecast winds are available for the flight planning system to compute with.
But if you really want YYT up your sleeve, then I think the only way to do it and stay compliant with the rules, without SATCOM, is to have a bloke on the ground (perhaps your trip support company, if you use one) watching you on FlightAware or your tracking website of choice. Once you (hopefully) zoom overhead YYT he would cancel CANPASS there.
Hope this helps!
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I say that you're making a mistake. When I tried to divert to Gander, I got all sorts of stuff from US ATC,
So why would you need to ? I'd use a USA alternate.
Opinions vary, do what you want. I just feel that you are adding several layers of trouble...
FR
So why would you need to ? I'd use a USA alternate.
Opinions vary, do what you want. I just feel that you are adding several layers of trouble...
FR
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Why Risk It?
As others have properly noted, you MAY be able to pull it off, but... I would not try. You probably won't get your license lifted, but both sides can cause you a lot of grief that you don't really need. Company won't take the heat, but the PIC will. Good luck.
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I will guess that your destination is not Bangor. So if it is tight, file and go to CYYT (or BIKF) and then to US destination (if it has customs)
Ahhh.....no customs at destination?
In that case, if your passengers are really not wanting to stop CYYT, and you are trying KBGR, file a CANPAS arrival at overhead estimate for YYT. File flightplan to KBGR, to the eAPIS, contact US customs and give them your ETA KBGR.
File CYYT as alternate.
When you are approaching CYYT, if it looks good for KBGR, then call St Johns and ask them to inform CANPASS that you are not stopping as planned, but continuing on to Bangor.
If you need to stop CYYT, then you are already set up and they are expecting you. Then on the ground, you update the Americans either KBGR or where-ever you will clear customs, if the CYYT stop permits you to go further.
Get a sat-phone!
or a Delorme tracker and send CANPASS an e-mail in flight if you are bypassing them.
Donīt make a habit of this, do what was suggested earlier and have a good flightplanning software, and donīt make convenience more important than safety!
Ahhh.....no customs at destination?
In that case, if your passengers are really not wanting to stop CYYT, and you are trying KBGR, file a CANPAS arrival at overhead estimate for YYT. File flightplan to KBGR, to the eAPIS, contact US customs and give them your ETA KBGR.
File CYYT as alternate.
When you are approaching CYYT, if it looks good for KBGR, then call St Johns and ask them to inform CANPASS that you are not stopping as planned, but continuing on to Bangor.
If you need to stop CYYT, then you are already set up and they are expecting you. Then on the ground, you update the Americans either KBGR or where-ever you will clear customs, if the CYYT stop permits you to go further.
Get a sat-phone!
or a Delorme tracker and send CANPASS an e-mail in flight if you are bypassing them.
Donīt make a habit of this, do what was suggested earlier and have a good flightplanning software, and donīt make convenience more important than safety!
