Over the limit pilot at NWI
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Dallas, they were perfectly within their rights. As an aoc operation, duty periods must be specified by law. We all know that happens retrospectively, but thats another argument.
Moonwalker, if you shut the door, you are performing an "aviation function", so they have got you there.
Moonwalker, if you shut the door, you are performing an "aviation function", so they have got you there.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Have to say the charge relating to an "aviation function" seems somewhat vague. This incident was the morning after the BACA prize giving and I can think of may people who - having performed at an aviation function the previous evening - could legitimately been over the alcohol limit the morning after 
. Where do you draw the line...
. Where do you draw the line...
Join Date: Nov 2006
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What do you mean they bring forward their travel plans ? You are on duty or off duty !
How shall one plan his rest if 'the plan' is just brought forward ? If the client wants flexibility put a standby at rest location before the flight !
Standby 24/7 ? Sorry, no thanks ! Its a job, not slavery...
How shall one plan his rest if 'the plan' is just brought forward ? If the client wants flexibility put a standby at rest location before the flight !
Standby 24/7 ? Sorry, no thanks ! Its a job, not slavery...
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Moonwalker, Maybe it's because you're not supposed to be drunk when air side!
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Dallas, they were perfectly within their rights. As an aoc operation, duty periods must be specified by law. We all know that happens retrospectively, but thats another argument. Moonwalker, if you shut the door, you are performing an "aviation function", so they have got you there.
Join Date: May 2012
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"but it's a grey area if they've done cock all all day except run up a hotel bill! "
You seem to be saying two things. First that the crew were evading work/duty and second that this is a representative attitude companies must guard against.
In twenty years, not once can I recall meeting a crew member who wanted to do "cock all all day except run up a hotel bill", though I`ve met plenty who were keen to save their expenses and many more who were desperate to get home.
More commonly I`ve experienced crews who want to rest before or after a flight or finish their rotation asap, but hang out in a hotel? Not so much. Also, once in the hotel, I`m not sure how you "run up a hotel bill". Any flying I`ve done or organised has involved the crew covering their own expenses. However, our experiences are our own.
In all cases corporate crews are paid for their time, not flight hours. It makes no odds to me whether they`re sitting on the ground for a month or flying 80 hours, I am paying them for their availability. That`s crystal clear, but even in private ops, fair practice suggests I should identify to the crew when they are on standby and when they`re finished. "Bloggs you`re on at 0600 and off 2000". I`m not defending excessive drinking before a flight, but after a period of standby it`s perfectly reasonable that crews should be free to ....insert leisure activity- go swimming, watch a movie or have a meal and a glass of wine. I would appreciate it if they answered the phone at least if I had need to contact them during their off time, but otherwise, their only obligation to me AFAIC is to present themselves fully ready at the next standby or duty period.
If a company refuses to acknowledge the basic human need for rest and some measure of relaxation and then finds them embarressed because it assigned a flight to an aircraft with no crew, then they only have themselves to blame. Forgive me, but I don`t have much sympathy for a business model that relies on rolling standby and I certainly don`t have any sympathy when they suffer the embarrasment of having a flight compromised because of their policy.
IMHO, if a company can`t operate according to the regulations or fair practice it should leave and allow better operators to succeed.
You seem to be saying two things. First that the crew were evading work/duty and second that this is a representative attitude companies must guard against.
In twenty years, not once can I recall meeting a crew member who wanted to do "cock all all day except run up a hotel bill", though I`ve met plenty who were keen to save their expenses and many more who were desperate to get home.
More commonly I`ve experienced crews who want to rest before or after a flight or finish their rotation asap, but hang out in a hotel? Not so much. Also, once in the hotel, I`m not sure how you "run up a hotel bill". Any flying I`ve done or organised has involved the crew covering their own expenses. However, our experiences are our own.
In all cases corporate crews are paid for their time, not flight hours. It makes no odds to me whether they`re sitting on the ground for a month or flying 80 hours, I am paying them for their availability. That`s crystal clear, but even in private ops, fair practice suggests I should identify to the crew when they are on standby and when they`re finished. "Bloggs you`re on at 0600 and off 2000". I`m not defending excessive drinking before a flight, but after a period of standby it`s perfectly reasonable that crews should be free to ....insert leisure activity- go swimming, watch a movie or have a meal and a glass of wine. I would appreciate it if they answered the phone at least if I had need to contact them during their off time, but otherwise, their only obligation to me AFAIC is to present themselves fully ready at the next standby or duty period.
If a company refuses to acknowledge the basic human need for rest and some measure of relaxation and then finds them embarressed because it assigned a flight to an aircraft with no crew, then they only have themselves to blame. Forgive me, but I don`t have much sympathy for a business model that relies on rolling standby and I certainly don`t have any sympathy when they suffer the embarrasment of having a flight compromised because of their policy.
IMHO, if a company can`t operate according to the regulations or fair practice it should leave and allow better operators to succeed.
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In the situation I was referring to it had been Day 3 of a jet being left at a 24/7 international airport where, rather than needlessly move jet to base, a commercial decision was made to leave it at last drop and hope to pick up work. The crew were aware of this, clearly bored, but their preceding duty had been 2+ days earlier. They decided around 2000 LT that nothing was going to happen and elected to have a drink. At 2010 a charter came in that they were perfectly placed for which the company lost.
The point of my post wasn't actually to castigate them, or neglect them rest before or after flying; my point was that after they'd done another day or so of whatever the company required of them they were on rostered days off. So I'm not suggesting crew are flogged to death - these guys weren't - just that there is a time to have a drink and a time, I suggest, not to.
The point of my post wasn't actually to castigate them, or neglect them rest before or after flying; my point was that after they'd done another day or so of whatever the company required of them they were on rostered days off. So I'm not suggesting crew are flogged to death - these guys weren't - just that there is a time to have a drink and a time, I suggest, not to.
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Traditionally, any time after 1900L is time to have a drink. Company could have forewarned the crew that they had even quoted for a charter, never mind a "go now " call.
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Globalstream you are so right what you say. (Purple Pitot too). Can I come and work for you please!
Trouble is that many employers/management companies don't have the common sense to adopt such obvious procedures.
Trouble is that many employers/management companies don't have the common sense to adopt such obvious procedures.
