King Air 200 down at KICT - 4 Fatal
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NOW HOLD ON A SECOND
Some have attacked the posts by an up and coming (in training) pilot called cirrus falcon.
I've been around for quite awhile and when I FIRST heard the EARLY reports, the building was described as an FAA Flight Safety District OFFICE and not a FLIGHT SAFETY SIM CENTER>
I recalled the pilot who crashed his airplane deliberately into a US Treasury/IRS building as a protest on taxes and I had passing thought that someone MIGHT, KEY WORD MIGHT, have been angry at the FAA for something.
SUBSEQUENT reports had me change my mind.
BUT there are some good questions here, and I mentioned earlier that one computer graphic SHOWED THE WHEELS STILL DOWN and the LEFT PROP FEATHERED>
YOU need to get the GEAR UP in just about any twin if you lose an engine in order to get it to climb.
DOES ANYONE know if the gear was found, up or down, in the debris?
IN the grand scheme of all turboprops, the KING AIR is not really that tough to fly. Tough to fly well perhaps!
SO dear CIRRUS FALCON I hope you ignore the posts of some on this thread. BUT let us all wait to find out a few more facts.
AND if anyone has some new facts, please post them!
POSITIVE RATE< GEAR UP!
Some have attacked the posts by an up and coming (in training) pilot called cirrus falcon.
I've been around for quite awhile and when I FIRST heard the EARLY reports, the building was described as an FAA Flight Safety District OFFICE and not a FLIGHT SAFETY SIM CENTER>
I recalled the pilot who crashed his airplane deliberately into a US Treasury/IRS building as a protest on taxes and I had passing thought that someone MIGHT, KEY WORD MIGHT, have been angry at the FAA for something.
SUBSEQUENT reports had me change my mind.
BUT there are some good questions here, and I mentioned earlier that one computer graphic SHOWED THE WHEELS STILL DOWN and the LEFT PROP FEATHERED>
YOU need to get the GEAR UP in just about any twin if you lose an engine in order to get it to climb.
DOES ANYONE know if the gear was found, up or down, in the debris?
IN the grand scheme of all turboprops, the KING AIR is not really that tough to fly. Tough to fly well perhaps!
SO dear CIRRUS FALCON I hope you ignore the posts of some on this thread. BUT let us all wait to find out a few more facts.
AND if anyone has some new facts, please post them!
POSITIVE RATE< GEAR UP!
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POH
Ok, ATC. Let's stick with feelings and "rumors", and ignore science. Got it. Just chuck out that POH. Wait, the POH says one should get about 600fpm climb on one engine even at max weight. The POH does not address un-feathered bad engine, as far as I can see, but I found pilot reports that not feathering the bad engine was only marginally worse. As my first post said, I hope this is "just" a tragic accident, but I don't let emotions get in the way of wanting to know WHY innocent people on the ground died.
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Go back to your dog house and take a nap
Defer Dog, why so unpleasant? Sorry you disagreed with my post, which was hardly mean spirited. Your rudeness is not a rebuttal. Get a grip.
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but I found pilot reports that not feathering the bad engine was only marginally worse.
Forgetitng to retract the gear gives less of a problem than not feathering. Just reduces your rate. Given the location (having been in the same building umpteen times) IŽd say it very much like a classic loss of control, airplane turning left with ever steeper bank.
The 3 blade version was way more forgiving in the same scenario, thats why Autofeather is mandatory on anything with more than 3 blades on a B200.
With full fuel and one pilot modern B200 are very close to MTOW.
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I'll give you a reason not to post something as stupid as that. The loved ones and friends of those who have lost their lives will be searching for a reason right now. They are likely to find this site and the suggestion that this was a deliberate act will be offensive and upsetting to them. Also, you are talking absolute rubbish. If the failed engine wasn't feathered the aircraft would have been bloody difficult to fly, let alone make it climb. I'd love to see the reference where you got the idea that feathering makes little difference.
I've had hundreds of engine failures, engine separations, compressor surges, electrical failures, hydraulic failures, control jams etc, some of them in the very hall that has been destroyed by the aircraft thats just crashed into it. The rest have also generally been in simulators. Its a certainty that this pilot lost his life doing everything he could to stay alive. Its clear from a quick search about him that he was a dedicated aviation professional and he was well respected by those who knew him. I remember having muffins and special "keep awake during the afternoon session" coffee with one of the instructors who has lost his life and he was an extremely likeable, knowlegeable, friendly helpful bloke who I know will be missed by his family and all who worked with him and I'll tell you something that he is likely to have quietly said
"you learn in this business if you listen more, talk less, and think hard"
I've had hundreds of engine failures, engine separations, compressor surges, electrical failures, hydraulic failures, control jams etc, some of them in the very hall that has been destroyed by the aircraft thats just crashed into it. The rest have also generally been in simulators. Its a certainty that this pilot lost his life doing everything he could to stay alive. Its clear from a quick search about him that he was a dedicated aviation professional and he was well respected by those who knew him. I remember having muffins and special "keep awake during the afternoon session" coffee with one of the instructors who has lost his life and he was an extremely likeable, knowlegeable, friendly helpful bloke who I know will be missed by his family and all who worked with him and I'll tell you something that he is likely to have quietly said
"you learn in this business if you listen more, talk less, and think hard"
Single vs Twin
This accident illustrates an interesting play on the single vs twin safety. ( I know at least one person who will not fly in a Single, "Twins are safer" )
Turbine engines are very reliable but they do fail. In this case if the plane had been say a PC-12 in all likelihood the pilot would have walked, quite possibly putting the plane down on the runway. (Also if it was a random failure - he would have had 50% less chance of the engine failure in the first place. )
I remember seeing a video of a King Air (pretty sure it was Brazil) flying single engine in the pattern and burying itself on the base to final. If it had been a single the pilot would have had no choice but to do an off field landing. As long as he maintained control things would likely have been OK.
I have never flown a twin but could imagine that a real life failure such as described here would be a handful. He probably only had a few seconds to make his moves and even then there might not have been anything he could have done. I'm pretty sure the NTSB will get to the bottom of it
20driver
Cirrus Falcon - " why so unpleasant" - suggest you read what you wrote. Your posts show lack of technical skill. Social skill are even lower.
Turbine engines are very reliable but they do fail. In this case if the plane had been say a PC-12 in all likelihood the pilot would have walked, quite possibly putting the plane down on the runway. (Also if it was a random failure - he would have had 50% less chance of the engine failure in the first place. )
I remember seeing a video of a King Air (pretty sure it was Brazil) flying single engine in the pattern and burying itself on the base to final. If it had been a single the pilot would have had no choice but to do an off field landing. As long as he maintained control things would likely have been OK.
I have never flown a twin but could imagine that a real life failure such as described here would be a handful. He probably only had a few seconds to make his moves and even then there might not have been anything he could have done. I'm pretty sure the NTSB will get to the bottom of it
20driver
Cirrus Falcon - " why so unpleasant" - suggest you read what you wrote. Your posts show lack of technical skill. Social skill are even lower.
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I have never flown a twin but could imagine that a real life failure such as described here would be a handful
Having dealt successfully with engine failures in twins, from historic types to turboprops (never in a turbojet, though I have done OEI flying including landings and go-arounds in them), I'd rather rely on my training and skills, than decide that those things are lacking and resign myself to being competent only to fly a single.
I think that reflects how I would like to care for my passengers, too.
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With regard to the speculation.... it's interesting that aircraft accidents, at least of high profile, are so infrequent that we almost seem to expect an 'extraordinary' explanation; we don't just 'expect them to happen' it seems.
Personally, without knowing the pilot at all, or anything except what's been stated generally, I would find the theory of a deliberate 'kamikaze' type crash incredible for a number of reasons.
Personally, without knowing the pilot at all, or anything except what's been stated generally, I would find the theory of a deliberate 'kamikaze' type crash incredible for a number of reasons.
- No-one has come forward to suggest the pilot was unstable, unwell, financially troubled or any of these 'markers' that typically come out after a 'suicide'
- There appears to be no explicit direct link between the pilot and the facility he hit, other than the fact that both were 'in aviation'
- To me the most telling: the aircraft is described as having had an engine failure. Not only are there plausible scenarios where this could have lead to loss of control, but as far as i can recall, no proven 'suicide' event has occurred other than with a fully operational aircraft. That's hardly a surprise - if you intend a dramatic 'end' then you don't need a failure, you already decided your course, and you don't need to induce a failure to provide an 'alibi'.
OK, I'm a firm believer that speculating at the round table on Monday morning is a necessary part of pilot training and mentoring, and that even though speculation doesnt change the outcome, it can certainly provide some relevent Table Talk for new and seasoned pilots alike... but to suggest that a well respected Aviator (who transmitted a hasty MAYDAY call during the emergency) would then deliberately crash a plane is ludicrous. I know that this sort of incident has happened before... but it had all the indicators of a preplanned attack, this has NONE. I still speculate that this was more than just a "simple" engine failure on takeoff, but more likely a loss of Prop control or a failure to reverse thrust(which would be worse case IMO) maybe even a simple engine failure, without the ability to Autofeather for whatever reason. I really would be surprised if it was simply an EO on takeoff. but then again, there isn't much of a worse point for that to happen either. I respect people who offer speculation to spark meaningful learning and conversation, because it reminds people to go back and review there own procedures, and knowledge base... but don't bring ridiculous ideas here.
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Let's try to keep this in perspective.. The a/c does not achieve X FPM after losing an engine on take-off.. the a/c does not achieve anything without inputs from the pilot.
What the aircraft 'can' do, with a company test-pilot on a good day who is knowingly going to demonstrate the EFATO characteristics and achieves X FPM climb is not what the average pilot is likely to achieve when faced with a once in a career real life incident where the first few vital seconds are wasted in confusion.
If this poor guy got it wrong it's quite likely that many others out there will also have got it wrong.
As an ex-FlightSafety instructor with 3 yrs of sim training professional pilots under my belt I can testify that it takes practice on a regular basis to achieve a decent standard of handling an EFATO situation and that's when we know what's coming. In real life this event will in all probability never be experienced by the overwhelming majority of pilots flying modern turbo-props/turbo-jets. Without regular training in a quality sim once might be one time too many.
What the aircraft 'can' do, with a company test-pilot on a good day who is knowingly going to demonstrate the EFATO characteristics and achieves X FPM climb is not what the average pilot is likely to achieve when faced with a once in a career real life incident where the first few vital seconds are wasted in confusion.
If this poor guy got it wrong it's quite likely that many others out there will also have got it wrong.
As an ex-FlightSafety instructor with 3 yrs of sim training professional pilots under my belt I can testify that it takes practice on a regular basis to achieve a decent standard of handling an EFATO situation and that's when we know what's coming. In real life this event will in all probability never be experienced by the overwhelming majority of pilots flying modern turbo-props/turbo-jets. Without regular training in a quality sim once might be one time too many.
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Just back from C90 GTI Kingair training in. Wichita at flightsafety
Very shocking accident. One instructor is recovering in hospital.
Obviously I paid attention when it came to EFATO drills and I saw for myself that if you do nothing else but fly the correct pitch attitude the aircraft is controllable and will climb away. This is true feathered or not , gear up or not, flaps or not. Emphasised by instructor and examiner who both advised concentrate very carefully on achieving and maintaining the correct pitch attitude with wings level.
Saying that it requires a lot of focus and feels weird to not worry about anything else to avoid getting distracted. There is a natural tendency to want to do something such as we are told to do like Gear, flaps etc but there is a short time window of a few seconds whee if you do not nail the attitude you will most likely loose control. Asfter what seems like a long time but is only a matter of a few minutes you can then clean things up. Practice this many times with special emphasis and it works BUT I was expecting the problem and was being coached very carefully on what to do. The first time I reacted "normally" without expecting it I lost control.
Condolences to all of the people who lost loved ones
Very shocking accident. One instructor is recovering in hospital.
Obviously I paid attention when it came to EFATO drills and I saw for myself that if you do nothing else but fly the correct pitch attitude the aircraft is controllable and will climb away. This is true feathered or not , gear up or not, flaps or not. Emphasised by instructor and examiner who both advised concentrate very carefully on achieving and maintaining the correct pitch attitude with wings level.
Saying that it requires a lot of focus and feels weird to not worry about anything else to avoid getting distracted. There is a natural tendency to want to do something such as we are told to do like Gear, flaps etc but there is a short time window of a few seconds whee if you do not nail the attitude you will most likely loose control. Asfter what seems like a long time but is only a matter of a few minutes you can then clean things up. Practice this many times with special emphasis and it works BUT I was expecting the problem and was being coached very carefully on what to do. The first time I reacted "normally" without expecting it I lost control.
Condolences to all of the people who lost loved ones
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As someone said earlier, its all very well in a new aircraft with a company test pilot at the controls. I used to fly the B200 single pilot around Europe, I loved the aeroplane but it was hard work with just me in the front.
If the auto-feather went on strike when the engine did then the pilot would be faced with massive drag, select the right attitude for the single engine climb, not yet realising/knowing that auto-feather hasn't done it's job, but expecting it to and VMCA+10 will be almost impossible to maintain. Add in the fact that after a few years of service no aircraft is as aerodynamically aligned as it is when it leaves the factory and you may just be adding one or two knots to the problem. Add in the "I don't believe it!" couple of seconds and everything will start to go wrong mighty quick.
I used to do Citation recurrency training in that building, like all FSI locations it is staffed by dedicated professionals who love to fly. The pilot of the B200 seems to have been a similar person. One day Cirrus Falcon will get to be trained by/fly with such people, then he might realise that his comments have been somewhat offensive, many of us on this site have seen dead friends/colleagues have their skills and standards questioned by amateurs who knew nothing about them or their standards and that this is a PROFESSIONAL PILOTS RUMOUR NETWORK and he isn't a pro yet.
SND
If the auto-feather went on strike when the engine did then the pilot would be faced with massive drag, select the right attitude for the single engine climb, not yet realising/knowing that auto-feather hasn't done it's job, but expecting it to and VMCA+10 will be almost impossible to maintain. Add in the fact that after a few years of service no aircraft is as aerodynamically aligned as it is when it leaves the factory and you may just be adding one or two knots to the problem. Add in the "I don't believe it!" couple of seconds and everything will start to go wrong mighty quick.
I used to do Citation recurrency training in that building, like all FSI locations it is staffed by dedicated professionals who love to fly. The pilot of the B200 seems to have been a similar person. One day Cirrus Falcon will get to be trained by/fly with such people, then he might realise that his comments have been somewhat offensive, many of us on this site have seen dead friends/colleagues have their skills and standards questioned by amateurs who knew nothing about them or their standards and that this is a PROFESSIONAL PILOTS RUMOUR NETWORK and he isn't a pro yet.
SND
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Cirrus Falcon - quit while your way behind, my only wish is you where just a little smarter than you think you are, so you could truly appreciate how dumb you are - as we are aware - your posts are disrespectful, uncalled for and go against all facts as known.
As for the accident - aircraft stayed on the roof, but fuel ignited thru the Cessna Caravan Sim room - lost where a 78 year old FSI instructor - a Russian C208 pilot, and a Wichita based lady operating as a translator for the pilots.
Besides the pilot (fatal) 4 persons where taken to hospital and released that day, a fifth was taken to hospital and remains in serious condition.
As for the accident - aircraft stayed on the roof, but fuel ignited thru the Cessna Caravan Sim room - lost where a 78 year old FSI instructor - a Russian C208 pilot, and a Wichita based lady operating as a translator for the pilots.
Besides the pilot (fatal) 4 persons where taken to hospital and released that day, a fifth was taken to hospital and remains in serious condition.
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I'd rather rely on my training and skills, than decide that those things are lacking and resign myself to being competent only to fly a single.
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prelim ntsb report
NTSB releases preliminary report on last week's deadly plane crash | Local News - Home
things did not go well...gear NOT up...
note reduction of power on good engine
think he got slow, way down low, forgot the gear and bam
things did not go well...gear NOT up...
note reduction of power on good engine
think he got slow, way down low, forgot the gear and bam
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note reduction of power on good engine
One witness observed the airplane shortly after it became airborne and heard a reduction in power on one engine before it entered the left turn. Another witness saw the airplane from about 20 yards away. He said the airplane was in a left turn and approached the hangars east of FSI, then the wings were level as it flew west toward FSI. The airplane's landing gear were "down and locked", the flaps were extended, the rudder was neutral, and the right engine was at full power. The witness did not see the left engine.
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I'm very surprised at such tripe being published. Who can tell what power an engine is producing from outside an aircraft.
It seems to dispel the theory that Beech were operating it.
It seems to dispel the theory that Beech were operating it.
