You just thought you where the PIC
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA/Europe/Central Asia
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You just thought you where the PIC
Chew on this one for awhile. The ground monkeys are now going to tell you when you do and don't need de-icing! " they are trained in this decision making"
Dear Sirs,
Lately we have faced a number of PIC refusals to the de-icing procedures and agreement for carrying out such a procedure only upon Vnukovo flight safely inspector’s arrival.
We’d like to closely draw your attention to the fact that in the circumstances when parking time of transit aircraft is 1-1.5 hours after the flight corridors at temperatures up to - 50 C, under these weather conditions, the discreet transparent ice crust can form on the cold wing, disruption of which can lead to the ice hit into the engine air intakes, damage to the engine blades and their failure during the aircraft takeoff. And this is also one of the factors which reduce the flight security level.
From our side we kindly ask you to inform the crews on the responsibility for making decisions on the aircraft departure which condition does not comply with ICAO Doc.9640-AN/940, and on the need to fulfill the requirements of the aeronautical authorities of the Russian Federation:
- Letter of instruction of Rosaviation dated 05.02.2013g № 03.10-7 (Recommendations for the protection of aircraft from ground icing, section 3.4) "If there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, and the crew abandons de-icing procedure, the responsible person for the aircraft departure must immediately inform the safety inspection.
The PIC should not make a decision on the aircraft departure without anti-icing procedure in case there is a report from the responsible person, that there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, except when it is allowed according to the aircraft manual.
-The Guideline of Rosaviation from 31.05.2013g. № 03.9-26, p.3.7.5 "To exclude the practice of aircraft de-icing procedure refusals based solely on the decision of the crew not to conduct such a procedure."
The specialists of the Center of Business Aviation Vnukovo-3 Ground service are all certified for the de-icing procedure conduction including decision making for aircraft de-icing procedure in case of non-conformity of the critical surfaces with the clean aircraft concept.
Best Regards,
Natalia Shelegeda
Clients relations manager
"CCAS "RusAero", PJSC
mob.:+ 7 903 523 82 42
tel., fax + 7 495 7555604 (ext.153)
Dear Sirs,
Lately we have faced a number of PIC refusals to the de-icing procedures and agreement for carrying out such a procedure only upon Vnukovo flight safely inspector’s arrival.
We’d like to closely draw your attention to the fact that in the circumstances when parking time of transit aircraft is 1-1.5 hours after the flight corridors at temperatures up to - 50 C, under these weather conditions, the discreet transparent ice crust can form on the cold wing, disruption of which can lead to the ice hit into the engine air intakes, damage to the engine blades and their failure during the aircraft takeoff. And this is also one of the factors which reduce the flight security level.
From our side we kindly ask you to inform the crews on the responsibility for making decisions on the aircraft departure which condition does not comply with ICAO Doc.9640-AN/940, and on the need to fulfill the requirements of the aeronautical authorities of the Russian Federation:
- Letter of instruction of Rosaviation dated 05.02.2013g № 03.10-7 (Recommendations for the protection of aircraft from ground icing, section 3.4) "If there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, and the crew abandons de-icing procedure, the responsible person for the aircraft departure must immediately inform the safety inspection.
The PIC should not make a decision on the aircraft departure without anti-icing procedure in case there is a report from the responsible person, that there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, except when it is allowed according to the aircraft manual.
-The Guideline of Rosaviation from 31.05.2013g. № 03.9-26, p.3.7.5 "To exclude the practice of aircraft de-icing procedure refusals based solely on the decision of the crew not to conduct such a procedure."
The specialists of the Center of Business Aviation Vnukovo-3 Ground service are all certified for the de-icing procedure conduction including decision making for aircraft de-icing procedure in case of non-conformity of the critical surfaces with the clean aircraft concept.
Best Regards,
Natalia Shelegeda
Clients relations manager
"CCAS "RusAero", PJSC
mob.:+ 7 903 523 82 42
tel., fax + 7 495 7555604 (ext.153)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: MCO (occasionally)
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A whole lot of staff time went into writing that one, and perhaps they get promoted based on the number of words they use. That said, it looks like they are saying "play it safe out there, when in doubt, deice".
Just may save an aircraft or two from crashing on takeoff. Have you ever seen the video of the 4" of snow blowing off the wing of a 'bus on takeoff....
- Happy that I'm in Turks this month!!
FR
Just may save an aircraft or two from crashing on takeoff. Have you ever seen the video of the 4" of snow blowing off the wing of a 'bus on takeoff....
- Happy that I'm in Turks this month!!
FR
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not mentioned is, how much the responsible, trained person will get for every liter of fluid sold to you.
All well intended. I guess.
But then I´d like to have personell doing the deicing as I order it, and - e.g. - NOT fill my APU intake to the brim with their stuff after spending 10 minutes with diagrams, hand and feet explaining that this is the APU intake and should not be sprayed...
To exclude the practice of aircraft de-icing procedure refusals based solely on the decision of the crew not to conduct such a procedure."
But then I´d like to have personell doing the deicing as I order it, and - e.g. - NOT fill my APU intake to the brim with their stuff after spending 10 minutes with diagrams, hand and feet explaining that this is the APU intake and should not be sprayed...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The PIC should not make a decision on the aircraft departure without anti-icing procedure in case there is a report from the responsible person, that there are snow and ice deposits on the aircraft critical surfaces, except when it is allowed according to the aircraft manual.
This is nothing but BS. If we don't need de-icing and I'm told by a "responsible person" that we do, then he is paying for it as well.
CP
As I read this the intent is that pilots who refuse to deice can now be overuled by flight ops and be forced to get the airplane sprayed before takeoff
Given the cowboy culture of Russian airline ops. remember the video of the A320 taking off with a foot of snow on the wing
; If I was a passenger on a Russian jet (although for me that will never happen), I would be happy that ground crew could force the pilot to deice as the Russian pilots have demonstrated on numerous occasions that they do not have the personal discipline to operate safely.
Given the cowboy culture of Russian airline ops. remember the video of the A320 taking off with a foot of snow on the wing
; If I was a passenger on a Russian jet (although for me that will never happen), I would be happy that ground crew could force the pilot to deice as the Russian pilots have demonstrated on numerous occasions that they do not have the personal discipline to operate safely.
Wow, that happened to me recently at VKO 3! Our plane had been parked in the hangar. I had asked them to tow us out just before we would go to prevent any accumulation of snow on our wings. When we were ready for startup I made a final outside check and also touched both wings. As it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings, the rest was clear and clean. As we were about to flip the engine start switch a guy from the ground staff came waving and made some gestures that we would have to de-ice. I denied that and even disembarked quickly to talk to him. He did not speak a single word of English. I told him that we are the flight crew and that we are ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight and that it is not his decision, but ours. He would not give up. They would not let us go, they were keen to make some money. Our handling agent finally came by and translated. He told us that they had orders to not let anyone go without de-icing in active snowfall. To cut this nonsense short I agreed to a Type I only de-icing, but they also refused it and insisted on a 2 step de-icing/anti-icing with Type IV. There's nothing you can do, in Russia you don't have any power to decide in Russia, it was shocking. Bloody bastards.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 52
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, with the taxi-times VKO 3 has on offer, especially for 19 departures, declining an anti-ice doesn't strike me as the smartest move in the business. Hell, we've even de-iced - and then, with snow being forecast, added Type IV as the taxi-time at that point was hovering around the 40-min mark.
A lot of weather can change in 40 min, and having to taxi back will make you look like a douche to the punters...
...but somehow I suspect that this wouldn't have been a problem.
It's their train set, folks - if you want to fly there, you play by their rules. If this comes as a surprise and infringes on budgets... well
A lot of weather can change in 40 min, and having to taxi back will make you look like a douche to the punters...
...but somehow I suspect that this wouldn't have been a problem.
It's their train set, folks - if you want to fly there, you play by their rules. If this comes as a surprise and infringes on budgets... well
It is not about the budged, at least not in my outfit. It is simply about being necessary or not. Actually our taxi-time was 9 minutes until we set take-off thrust on runway 01!
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 52
Posts: 568
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EMS,
Point taken - although I must admit to subscribing to "clean-means-clean" and "any precip = anti-ice". Cannot be bovvered to be the one that has to decide exactly how much light snow is too much light snow. Call me lazy
Point taken - although I must admit to subscribing to "clean-means-clean" and "any precip = anti-ice". Cannot be bovvered to be the one that has to decide exactly how much light snow is too much light snow. Call me lazy
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is simply about being necessary or not.
At the same time its also my job to make sure we are not wasting money just because some "responsible person" comes along and tells me to.
CP
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dream land
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you turned up 10 years ago, had 20cm of snow on the wing and you asked for deicing, they looked at you with bewilderment and asked, what you want deicing, why???
I guess i prefer it the way it is now to be honest!!
I guess i prefer it the way it is now to be honest!!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: MCO (occasionally)
Posts: 387
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you including your "ground based colleagues" in the deice process? This is all that is happening here...
If you get defensive when you explain your decisions, or when others "check your work" then perhaps you need to evaluate if your standards are high enough, and if your motivations are pure.
>just sayin'
FR
If you get defensive when you explain your decisions, or when others "check your work" then perhaps you need to evaluate if your standards are high enough, and if your motivations are pure.
>just sayin'
FR
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
Posts: 1,657
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me the decision to de-ice or not is a matter of the survival of my colleagues, passengers, and more importantly, myself. That's pure enough for me....
These people in Moscow don't check our work because they have any standards or because they actually know what they are doing. You can take my word for it.
CP
These people in Moscow don't check our work because they have any standards or because they actually know what they are doing. You can take my word for it.
CP
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: another place
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually I have found the guys at VKO3 fairly good over the last 2 years I have been based there.
Russia, if you try to fight it you will lose.
I think winter is late this year.
Russia, if you try to fight it you will lose.
I think winter is late this year.
Don't get me wrong there: when they de-ice, the VKO-crews always do a professional job on my plane, no question about that! It's simply about the decision to de-ice or not. In the situation I felt that verbal fighting was not getting us anywhere, but I cannot just give up, I had to argue at least a little bit.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: South West UK
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, to me this seems to say that if the ground crew think a pilot has declined de-icing when he should not they have a safety mechanism in place to do something about it.
With pilots who say "As it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings..." but they still don't want to de-ice, I'd say they are quite right right to introduce this new policy.
How does "a few tiny frozen droplets" meet a clean wing concept?!?
How does light snow fit with a decision not to anti-ice.
If that's typical of the pilots they see in Vnukovo then it sounds like their new policy is spot on!
With pilots who say "As it was snowing really, really slightly we had a few tiny frozen droplets on our outer wings..." but they still don't want to de-ice, I'd say they are quite right right to introduce this new policy.
How does "a few tiny frozen droplets" meet a clean wing concept?!?
How does light snow fit with a decision not to anti-ice.
If that's typical of the pilots they see in Vnukovo then it sounds like their new policy is spot on!
Hey Mr. 3 Point. You were not there, so you cannot judge the weather conditions and you don't know the type of aircraft that I fly. So please refrain from judging our decision.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
3 point
Somehow I smell a rat. And its called money? i had about 9 feet of ice and snow on a Citation wing from the roots out so yes we required deice!
When the truck arrived I was told they had a minimum deployment amount so by the time they finished we had the aircraft dripping tip to tip and nose to tail and about 2/3 more deicing fluid than we wanted or needed with a large bill!
My guess is this regulation is being used to generate work for the deicers! no gripe if its a genuine requirement but sometimes more a genuine requirement for cash in the tills.
Pace
Somehow I smell a rat. And its called money? i had about 9 feet of ice and snow on a Citation wing from the roots out so yes we required deice!
When the truck arrived I was told they had a minimum deployment amount so by the time they finished we had the aircraft dripping tip to tip and nose to tail and about 2/3 more deicing fluid than we wanted or needed with a large bill!
My guess is this regulation is being used to generate work for the deicers! no gripe if its a genuine requirement but sometimes more a genuine requirement for cash in the tills.
Pace
Maybe they had just too many accidents and close shaves and now decided to make de-icing sort of compulsory. Clearly, most crews will have enough common sense and self preservance to de-ice in any case of the slightest doubts, never the less in recent years there have been too many who did not. So I reckon, while it is a measure which rightly offends those who always did the right thing in this regard, it might safe a few others from their own stinginess or stupidity.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Let's hope Aeroflot and Transaero at Domodedovo also have their a/c de-iced too.