Jet Departure from Courchevel!
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Chaps I don't really get this. It doesn't say in the super cub manual that you can stick the brakes on and water ski. It doesn't say in the aero commander manual that you can shut both engines off and do aeros all the way down. It doesn't say in the 707 manual that you can roll it. But they all make for great videos don't they!
Aircraft like the citation are only certified for +-2 degrees because that covers most of what people want to do with them but this bloke has obviously thought about it and that's obvious for two reasons. 1, he didn't crash it on the way in and if you haven't put some thought into flaring onto a 30 degree upslope you'll duff it. And 2, he's done exactly what you should do taking off from a slope like that and gone blasting through V1, rotate, V2 and left it on the ground up to the tyre speed so that he doesn't have to rotate and risk clouting the tail. Climbing away isn't the issue, the terrain is disappearing below you.
If the pilot is reading, nice one, do it again mister. I'm planning a day trip to Lundy in the global..
Aircraft like the citation are only certified for +-2 degrees because that covers most of what people want to do with them but this bloke has obviously thought about it and that's obvious for two reasons. 1, he didn't crash it on the way in and if you haven't put some thought into flaring onto a 30 degree upslope you'll duff it. And 2, he's done exactly what you should do taking off from a slope like that and gone blasting through V1, rotate, V2 and left it on the ground up to the tyre speed so that he doesn't have to rotate and risk clouting the tail. Climbing away isn't the issue, the terrain is disappearing below you.
If the pilot is reading, nice one, do it again mister. I'm planning a day trip to Lundy in the global..
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Climbing away isn't the issue, the terrain is disappearing below you.
I expect most people to criticize this pilot but I think he has spirit and as a result I am planning to visit Courchevel.
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Interesting post, Mr. Tommoutrie, with regards to not doing the regular rotation so as to avoid a tailstrike on departure. How would he have modified the landing to take the upslope into account, do you think?
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ground up to the tyre speed
OTOH, the first - or last when you depart - bit of that rwy really looks almost level, so maybe you're within the 2° there ? One needs to be a tad creative with these things !
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Interesting post, Mr. Tommoutrie, with regards to not doing the regular rotation so as to avoid a tailstrike on departure.
Would be great if the chap/chapess would like to share his/her own experience here!
DK
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I believe you're both right. It certainly wasn't a 'normal' rotation but he also does seem to have got the nose off ever so slightly, before he runs out of concrete. Timed it just so, impressive. I wonder if the landing entails ref +10 or so, so's to allow for a higher flare, higher nose in the flare, that is, before running out of energy? Brave man, not much leeway for getting it wrong on that postage-stamp.
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Hey I just like it when people do fun stuff that's all.
Well there's the issue of approaching the up sloping runway where the pilot feels they are high so will tend to fly a shallow approach and speed control can be a bit odd because you're not flying a normal approach. Then the flare is to a higher than normal nose attitude so he has to flare correctly using the far end of the runway as a reference. Losing the energy after landing is obviously greatly assisted by the upslope but if he gets too slow there's the possibility of stopping and rolling backwards which will never end well - if you're lucky it will end up sitting on its tail..
Taking off there will be a tendency to rotate to the normal cues given by the horizon which won't be good because that would be likely to biff the tail. Gaining enough speed to fly won't be tough because of the slope so leaving it on the mains until well after Vr and even V2 will mean much less rotation is required to make it fly so the chances of a tailstrike are less.
Realistic problems are how on earth do you calculate a V1, I've got no idea because once it's charging off down the hill I doubt anything would stop it so I suspect V1 was walking pace. I would fly if it fell of the end of the runway if you stuck the nose down!
Never done it, wish I had the money to buy a CJ or a 500 and go and do stuff like that and chuck the rules out of the window because I think everyone will admit, seeing slightly crazy stuff done in planes is pretty cool. I strongly suspect that although its miles outside the flight manual, the pilot has put an awful lot more thought and experience into it than some suspect. Which is normally true of people doing unusual things in planes where there is a successful outcome.
I've decided that Lundy is too short..
Well there's the issue of approaching the up sloping runway where the pilot feels they are high so will tend to fly a shallow approach and speed control can be a bit odd because you're not flying a normal approach. Then the flare is to a higher than normal nose attitude so he has to flare correctly using the far end of the runway as a reference. Losing the energy after landing is obviously greatly assisted by the upslope but if he gets too slow there's the possibility of stopping and rolling backwards which will never end well - if you're lucky it will end up sitting on its tail..
Taking off there will be a tendency to rotate to the normal cues given by the horizon which won't be good because that would be likely to biff the tail. Gaining enough speed to fly won't be tough because of the slope so leaving it on the mains until well after Vr and even V2 will mean much less rotation is required to make it fly so the chances of a tailstrike are less.
Realistic problems are how on earth do you calculate a V1, I've got no idea because once it's charging off down the hill I doubt anything would stop it so I suspect V1 was walking pace. I would fly if it fell of the end of the runway if you stuck the nose down!
Never done it, wish I had the money to buy a CJ or a 500 and go and do stuff like that and chuck the rules out of the window because I think everyone will admit, seeing slightly crazy stuff done in planes is pretty cool. I strongly suspect that although its miles outside the flight manual, the pilot has put an awful lot more thought and experience into it than some suspect. Which is normally true of people doing unusual things in planes where there is a successful outcome.
I've decided that Lundy is too short..
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Having flown from some similar strips in the north, I dont see it as such a big deal, yes you are toast if one quits but this is true on the light twin I fly below blue line regardless of the runway slope/ obstructions/terain, what I want to know is who was the brave bugger driving the roller when they paved the runway?!
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Just to help put some of the landing conversation into context -
Regarding the take off, when the Citation leaves the runway how far does it sink before gaining height, 25-30ft?
Regarding the take off, when the Citation leaves the runway how far does it sink before gaining height, 25-30ft?
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We used to land the Caribou on a similar upslope/length strip in PNG (Kagi, near Kokoda).
The landing technique required you to anticipate and ignore the visual cues that messed with your finals perception - and in such a high tech aircraft as the 'Bou, you went for power/airspeed/rate of descent to verify glide path - no HUD with a velocity vector and GPA!
The flare required an over rotation to prevent excessive closure rate with the rising runway. Power was re-applied once the flare was established, to assure you had forward speed later in the landing roll. The teaching at the time was that you should not come to a halt on the runway, otherwise you might not have adequate power to taxi upslope to the flat 'tarmac' at the end for the turnaround in preparation for departure. Remembering to chop the power once you hit the flat bit at the end was a gotcha!
Density altitude due to elevation/high ambient temperature was also a factor to be considered for the flare judgement/power application. In a piston engined prop we had no issues with spool up time like a jet engine would have.
Takeoff was just as mentioned below - brakes release was your go/no go point. If you lost an engine going down the hill, you went off the end of the runway and descended into the valley to make single engine flying speed. There was another runway nearby, across the other side of the valley (the name escapes me) where you could subsequently land.
All good sport! But I have to admit, I wouldn't want to do it with a swept wing and jet engines. Call me chicken!
The landing technique required you to anticipate and ignore the visual cues that messed with your finals perception - and in such a high tech aircraft as the 'Bou, you went for power/airspeed/rate of descent to verify glide path - no HUD with a velocity vector and GPA!
The flare required an over rotation to prevent excessive closure rate with the rising runway. Power was re-applied once the flare was established, to assure you had forward speed later in the landing roll. The teaching at the time was that you should not come to a halt on the runway, otherwise you might not have adequate power to taxi upslope to the flat 'tarmac' at the end for the turnaround in preparation for departure. Remembering to chop the power once you hit the flat bit at the end was a gotcha!
Density altitude due to elevation/high ambient temperature was also a factor to be considered for the flare judgement/power application. In a piston engined prop we had no issues with spool up time like a jet engine would have.
Takeoff was just as mentioned below - brakes release was your go/no go point. If you lost an engine going down the hill, you went off the end of the runway and descended into the valley to make single engine flying speed. There was another runway nearby, across the other side of the valley (the name escapes me) where you could subsequently land.
All good sport!
But I have to admit, I wouldn't want to do it with a swept wing and jet engines. Call me chicken!
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Macho bulls@@t stunt flying. Impressive to look at but would have been a whole lot different with an engine out or a blown tyre after V1. I wonder what the second segment climb profile would have looked from this airport (6500' amsl)?
The reason that this flight couldn't have taken place under public transport regulations is that there were unacceptable safety margins to satisfy the duty of care requirements for fare-paying passengers. Captain, what about your duty of care to the Boss in the back, his or her oblivious colleagues and your starry-eyed FO?
I sincerely hope that this was an owner pilot on a solo jolly and not a professional crew with passengers on board. If it was a professional crew then I implore the FO to read the sorry tale of VP-BAF at Samedan and get away from this operation before that Captain kills you.
AP
The reason that this flight couldn't have taken place under public transport regulations is that there were unacceptable safety margins to satisfy the duty of care requirements for fare-paying passengers. Captain, what about your duty of care to the Boss in the back, his or her oblivious colleagues and your starry-eyed FO?
I sincerely hope that this was an owner pilot on a solo jolly and not a professional crew with passengers on board. If it was a professional crew then I implore the FO to read the sorry tale of VP-BAF at Samedan and get away from this operation before that Captain kills you.
AP