Am I legal to.....
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Am I legal to.....
Allow a friend I'm taking flying whilst exercising the privileges of my PPL to let him operate the controls ie. ' have a go ' ? All at a safe altitude of course.
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Am I legal to.....
What does the law state about handling if controls? And your club's/syndicates rules?
On the other hand, who else will know?
Just presenting both sides.
On the other hand, who else will know?
Just presenting both sides.
From the legal perspective, I would suggest "no".
Here is the JAR FCL reference that suggests it is not legal. I'm not up with EASA references but there's probably an equivalent somewhere.
JAR–FCL 1.010 Basic authority to act as a flight crew member
[(See Appendix 1 to JAR- FCL 1.010)
(See Appendix 2 to JAR-FCL 1.010)
(See AMC No. 1 to JAR-FCL 1.010)]
(a) Licence and rating
(1) A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a civil aeroplane registered in a JAA Member State unless that person holds a valid licence and rating complying with the requirements of JAR–FCL and appropriate to the duties being performed, or an authorisation as set out in JAR–FCL 1.085 and/or 1.230...
Here is the JAR FCL reference that suggests it is not legal. I'm not up with EASA references but there's probably an equivalent somewhere.
JAR–FCL 1.010 Basic authority to act as a flight crew member
[(See Appendix 1 to JAR- FCL 1.010)
(See Appendix 2 to JAR-FCL 1.010)
(See AMC No. 1 to JAR-FCL 1.010)]
(a) Licence and rating
(1) A person shall not act as a flight crew member of a civil aeroplane registered in a JAA Member State unless that person holds a valid licence and rating complying with the requirements of JAR–FCL and appropriate to the duties being performed, or an authorisation as set out in JAR–FCL 1.085 and/or 1.230...
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This does the rounds every year or so.
In the UK there was never any problem with it under the previous rule sets and also there was caa guidance to do with dealing with airsickness and the safety pilot courses which even promoted the giving controls to a none qualified pax on private flights.
Now a lot of EU countries it wasn't the done thing using exactly the same JAR regs as the UK used.
Under EASA I don't have a clue. But to me getting a pax to fly the plane S&L while the pilot gets the NAV sorted is good airmanship.
But.. its very hard for anyone to find out and also to prove post event. So as long as your mate doesn't go and publish nobody will really know.
Letting them landing and takeoff wouldn't be a good idea or for that matter flying at a level which would cause issues with an engine failure.
There are hundreds of pilots every year let there kids fly the plane under proper supervision with no major accidents.
In the UK there was never any problem with it under the previous rule sets and also there was caa guidance to do with dealing with airsickness and the safety pilot courses which even promoted the giving controls to a none qualified pax on private flights.
Now a lot of EU countries it wasn't the done thing using exactly the same JAR regs as the UK used.
Under EASA I don't have a clue. But to me getting a pax to fly the plane S&L while the pilot gets the NAV sorted is good airmanship.
But.. its very hard for anyone to find out and also to prove post event. So as long as your mate doesn't go and publish nobody will really know.
Letting them landing and takeoff wouldn't be a good idea or for that matter flying at a level which would cause issues with an engine failure.
There are hundreds of pilots every year let there kids fly the plane under proper supervision with no major accidents.
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you have to understand there is two different philosophy's when it comes to the rules and law.
1. Most of Europe- you not allowed to do something unless it is expressly said you can do it.
2. UK as long as it doesn't say you can't, you can do it.
There has been nothing ever said that states a unqualified pax can't operate the controls. And from the EASA stuff there still isn't, its mixed in with definitions of flight crew and other such terms but never a mention of touching the controls.
In the UK it will take someone getting taken to court before the precedent is set with the new EASA rules.
1. Most of Europe- you not allowed to do something unless it is expressly said you can do it.
2. UK as long as it doesn't say you can't, you can do it.
There has been nothing ever said that states a unqualified pax can't operate the controls. And from the EASA stuff there still isn't, its mixed in with definitions of flight crew and other such terms but never a mention of touching the controls.
In the UK it will take someone getting taken to court before the precedent is set with the new EASA rules.
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So let me get this straight. You are going to base your decision on advise dished out freely on a rumour network? Then you are going to take notice of it....in an airplane that has neither a flight data or voice recorder?
Are you completely deranged, or did you simply want to pose a rhetorical question?
And one final question. Why waste the bandwidth of two threads?
Fortunately though, it is not yet illegal to ask dumb questions like this.
Are you completely deranged, or did you simply want to pose a rhetorical question?
And one final question. Why waste the bandwidth of two threads?
Fortunately though, it is not yet illegal to ask dumb questions like this.
Last edited by deefer dog; 19th Sep 2013 at 17:18.
Again, from the legal perspective, the following is an extract from the UK Air Navigation Orders 2009:
"Requirement for appropriate licence to act as member of flight crew of aircraft registered in United Kingdom
50.—(1) Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
(2) An appropriate licence for the purposes of this Part means a licence which entitles the holder to perform the functions being undertaken in relation to the aircraft concerned on the particular flight."
Item (2) appears to indicate that in the UK, if a passenger is manipulating the controls, other than simply following the PIC through on the controls, that they are required to be appropriately licensed (unless the PIC is a qualified flight instructor).
That said, from a practical and safety perspective, if I am flying with a non-licensed person, I am going to be giving them some basic instruction in order to give them the ghost of a chance to survive in the event that I become incapacitated. I would feel irresponsible towards my passenger if I did not offer them this safety initiative, regardless of what the Regulations say.
As for letting a mate fly, Rule #1 is "Don't be found out".
"Requirement for appropriate licence to act as member of flight crew of aircraft registered in United Kingdom
50.—(1) Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.
(2) An appropriate licence for the purposes of this Part means a licence which entitles the holder to perform the functions being undertaken in relation to the aircraft concerned on the particular flight."
Item (2) appears to indicate that in the UK, if a passenger is manipulating the controls, other than simply following the PIC through on the controls, that they are required to be appropriately licensed (unless the PIC is a qualified flight instructor).
That said, from a practical and safety perspective, if I am flying with a non-licensed person, I am going to be giving them some basic instruction in order to give them the ghost of a chance to survive in the event that I become incapacitated. I would feel irresponsible towards my passenger if I did not offer them this safety initiative, regardless of what the Regulations say.
As for letting a mate fly, Rule #1 is "Don't be found out".
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If you are driving your car-and you let your friend drive, who doesn´t have a drivers license-is it legal?
At least in most parts of Europe: NO......
The same applies to flying.
You are not an instructor (and even then it wouldn´t be legal unless he is a student enlisted in a flying course, with an ATO)...
At least in most parts of Europe: NO......
The same applies to flying.
You are not an instructor (and even then it wouldn´t be legal unless he is a student enlisted in a flying course, with an ATO)...
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Give us all a break.
Yes it is a litigious society we live in now, so you need to cover yourself.
The aircraft flies itself. All we do is stop it crashing.
Amiri 01 summed it up nicely.
"Rules are for guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"
Yes it is a litigious society we live in now, so you need to cover yourself.
The aircraft flies itself. All we do is stop it crashing.
Amiri 01 summed it up nicely.
"Rules are for guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools"
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Yep so no mention of touching the controls.
There is no function of control manipulator.
There is though of PIC. The PIC is the PIC even if someone else is touching the controls.
It will take a court case to sort out what the law really means. But the precedence of CAA briefing material stating to get the pax to fly if they feel airsick and also to keep partners current if they have done the safety pilot course. Would come into play.
Now the EASA stuff has come into play things may have changed.
But to be honest the banning of none pilots having a go wouldn't have any effect at all on the safety statistics.
There is no function of control manipulator.
There is though of PIC. The PIC is the PIC even if someone else is touching the controls.
It will take a court case to sort out what the law really means. But the precedence of CAA briefing material stating to get the pax to fly if they feel airsick and also to keep partners current if they have done the safety pilot course. Would come into play.
Now the EASA stuff has come into play things may have changed.
But to be honest the banning of none pilots having a go wouldn't have any effect at all on the safety statistics.
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But to be honest the banning of none pilots having a go wouldn't have any effect at all on the safety statistics.
