Piaggio Avanti
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Steak - Yeah, you are right...why would we want a plane that flies higher and faster because of a better design?
Must be junk right? So let's just all sit down in the low 20s getting slammed in the weather, because you know, that's just the kind of low speed, high drag aircraft, you and your crew can fly with out getting too far ahead of you.
This is a ridiculous thread. We should be talking about going Mach 2 instead of talking about flying the slowest turboprops made based on 1960s technology. Boggles.
Must be junk right? So let's just all sit down in the low 20s getting slammed in the weather, because you know, that's just the kind of low speed, high drag aircraft, you and your crew can fly with out getting too far ahead of you.
This is a ridiculous thread. We should be talking about going Mach 2 instead of talking about flying the slowest turboprops made based on 1960s technology. Boggles.
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you can think about going mach 2, but on the question of turboprops, there is no competition: a bit of reading
Beechcraft King Air 350i Turboprop: Performance
Beechcraft King Air 350i Turboprop: Performance
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Well CL, the King Air boss tends to want the cabin. Never worked for that type, but I get it.
A mil for a 500 or 3.5 for a 350. It's a no brainer if you know how to keep costs down, but some peeps are Beech buyers to the end. Some outfits just hate jets, maybe the image.. and they sometimes migrate to the most expensive Tprop they can find, to the annoyance, or not of the pilot that has to spend his whole career banging through the weather in the 20s.
A mil for a 500 or 3.5 for a 350. It's a no brainer if you know how to keep costs down, but some peeps are Beech buyers to the end. Some outfits just hate jets, maybe the image.. and they sometimes migrate to the most expensive Tprop they can find, to the annoyance, or not of the pilot that has to spend his whole career banging through the weather in the 20s.
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Tel. There is an issue with the drag from a dead jet engine that plays into it.
You do know the P180 has a rather severe pitch instability at higher altitudes?
The right circumstances can create a pitch porpoise so severe all the pilot can do is hang on to the yoke for dear life and get low and slow to stop it. Happened to 3 that I know of ( as of about 7 years ago). What started the problem was under tensioned bridle cables on the pitch servo, but once it starts only low and slow stops it.
P180 is an Italian sports car, KA is a station wagon.
Oh and thanks for continuing to point out my lack of education. I was not aware I had sent you a resume.
You do know the P180 has a rather severe pitch instability at higher altitudes?
The right circumstances can create a pitch porpoise so severe all the pilot can do is hang on to the yoke for dear life and get low and slow to stop it. Happened to 3 that I know of ( as of about 7 years ago). What started the problem was under tensioned bridle cables on the pitch servo, but once it starts only low and slow stops it.
P180 is an Italian sports car, KA is a station wagon.
Oh and thanks for continuing to point out my lack of education. I was not aware I had sent you a resume.
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Why do you keep banging on about battling around in the 20's. the 250 and 350 go straight to F350. The only people in the 20's are trying to get 400 TAS in their avanti. Burning 1000lb per hr.
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Why do you keep banging on about battling around in the 20's. the 250 and 350 go straight to F350.
FL280 was the best we could aim for.
DK
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As a former driver it may be best to research the facts DK.
You are talking from inexperience. And talking rubbish.
You are talking from inexperience. And talking rubbish.
So long
DK
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Show me the link where the Avanti measures higher noise levels than a King Air. Just because people don't like they way it sounds, doesn't make it louder. That's audio racism..
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Adam - You are correct.
This forum is full of guys that purport to be experts, many times just regurgitating what they heard elsewhere. I haven't heard the P180 getting any noise abatement fines. It's got a 'tone' though, that I think can be deal with my pilot technique in the use of props.
This forum is full of guys that purport to be experts, many times just regurgitating what they heard elsewhere. I haven't heard the P180 getting any noise abatement fines. It's got a 'tone' though, that I think can be deal with my pilot technique in the use of props.
Santa Monica Airport (KSMO) noise management apparently disagrees. The P180 is on the banned aircraft list. Admittedly, the people's republic of SMO is heavily influenced by a bunch of hypocritical burned out hippie radical nut jobs with a NIMBY mindset, but their method of noise measurement is professionally administered and routinely calibrated. I had to work pretty hard to keep my 2 decades long record of no noise-o-meter busts intact while flying aircraft ranging from C-210s to Hawkers.
Though they gave it a good effort, the pilots trying to develop a repeatable and safe method of complying with the noise limits at SMO in the P180 were ultimately unsuccessful in their endeavor. Unlike most jets, they busted the noise limits on approach rather than departure.
Though they gave it a good effort, the pilots trying to develop a repeatable and safe method of complying with the noise limits at SMO in the P180 were ultimately unsuccessful in their endeavor. Unlike most jets, they busted the noise limits on approach rather than departure.
Last edited by westhawk; 6th Oct 2013 at 21:43.
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Westhawk is correct, and on the grounds of SMO; this thing will be banned in cascade...Approach is indeed more a concern, and it last longer over noise sensitive population. This loinks to my first advice : DO NOT BUY A P180, would it be I or II ....or anything else...
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Isn't it ironic that the person talking of the forum having people purporting to be experts, when he holds out himself to be such, yet holds absolutely no aviation qualifications. The only pilot tequnique he has with props is perhaps on the stage with puppets.
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Only on PPRUNE do pilots think planes landing flight idle make more noise then full blast on departure.
The DB sensors at SMO are on the East Side where the houses are.
The P180 has a sideline DB of 81, slightly under a King Air, and well under stage 3 of 89 dbs.
The problem is the tone of the P180, that according to Piaggio is caused by 5 blades hitting the exhaust gasses and not encumbered by a wing like most planes. Something about a Square sine wave pitch, very annoying, like a 185 with props full.
(See Brian, you learned something today - or is that possible with your broken DNA?)
The DB sensors at SMO are on the East Side where the houses are.
The P180 has a sideline DB of 81, slightly under a King Air, and well under stage 3 of 89 dbs.
The problem is the tone of the P180, that according to Piaggio is caused by 5 blades hitting the exhaust gasses and not encumbered by a wing like most planes. Something about a Square sine wave pitch, very annoying, like a 185 with props full.
(See Brian, you learned something today - or is that possible with your broken DNA?)
The P180 is on the banned aircraft list.
Notwithstanding the fact that the Avanti is Italian (and where turbulent airflow from airframe parts in front of the propellers definitely also contribute to its noise level), what is happening in SMO has already been part of daily life in Europe for decades, and to some extent also proves how blissfully ignorant and oblivious US GA manufacturers have been for years as far as noise is concerned (and to some extent still are, cf. e.g. a Cirrus SR22....)
Aviator Extraordinaire
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Only on PPRuNe do pilots think planes landing flight idle make more noise then full blast on departure.
Just for the record: I happen to like the P180!
But facts are facts and I'm only addressing what I know to be true. I was based at KSMO for some time as a charter pilot and flew there regularly when I was based elsewhere. I checked my noise reading EVERY time. I also had occasion to consult with other operators to help them remain noise compliant at SMO.
The fact that the P180 exceeds the 95.0 *SENEL noise limit at KSMO during the approach phase really isn't debatable. It does. There are actually 4 noise sensors placed around the airport area. While approaching rwy 21, aircraft pass above a sensor located approximately 1,500' NE of the runway. This is the same sensor which records noise levels for rwy 03 departures. There is another sensor located along the extended centerline of rwy 21, also approximately, 1,500' from the runway. Two other sensors are located within the airport area but are not used for noise enforcement.
It's unfortunate that misinformed individuals with few facts to back up their ill-conceived opinions feel the need to engage on this or any other site. People who actually have training, education, real-world aviation experience and are willing/able to do their research before posting find these maladjusted antagonists to be somewhat distracting and occasionally, even a mild irritation. But most of all a pity. What could have happened to them to make them behave in this way? It's a funny old world...
* Single Event Noise Exposure Level
SENEL is a time weighted noise measurement. It might best be described as a curve which represents sound pressure levels (depicted vertically) plotted along a (horizontal) time line. By calculating the time weighted average of the noise event, one approximates the SENEL. The actual methodology is somewhat more involved, but the idea is to express noise exposure as a function of both noise intensity and time exposure. This method differs somewhat from another airport noise measurement methodology used at some airports and known as CNEL (community noise exposure level)
A more comprehensive explanation of SENEL methodology can be obtained by speaking to the KSMO noise program specialist by phone or in person. This is well worth the time if one wishes to better understand how noise signatures are recorded at SMO. I found this helpful in understanding why various noise mitigation flying techniques were more or less effective in producing quiet (but still safe) arrival and departures in highly noise sensitive airport environments. Gulfstream developed a KSMO NADP for the G-IV/450 that works very well at SMO and I remember a period of time when NetJets were doing likewise with some of their fleet types. The Avantair folks made a valiant attempt to do the same with the P180, but with less success on arrival. IIRC, they WERE able to achieve some compliant arrivals but didn't think the technique used would be repeatable and safe for their line pilots in all reasonably expected wx conditions. (a lower drag, higher speed approach)
westhawk
But facts are facts and I'm only addressing what I know to be true. I was based at KSMO for some time as a charter pilot and flew there regularly when I was based elsewhere. I checked my noise reading EVERY time. I also had occasion to consult with other operators to help them remain noise compliant at SMO.
The fact that the P180 exceeds the 95.0 *SENEL noise limit at KSMO during the approach phase really isn't debatable. It does. There are actually 4 noise sensors placed around the airport area. While approaching rwy 21, aircraft pass above a sensor located approximately 1,500' NE of the runway. This is the same sensor which records noise levels for rwy 03 departures. There is another sensor located along the extended centerline of rwy 21, also approximately, 1,500' from the runway. Two other sensors are located within the airport area but are not used for noise enforcement.
It's unfortunate that misinformed individuals with few facts to back up their ill-conceived opinions feel the need to engage on this or any other site. People who actually have training, education, real-world aviation experience and are willing/able to do their research before posting find these maladjusted antagonists to be somewhat distracting and occasionally, even a mild irritation. But most of all a pity. What could have happened to them to make them behave in this way? It's a funny old world...
* Single Event Noise Exposure Level
SENEL is a time weighted noise measurement. It might best be described as a curve which represents sound pressure levels (depicted vertically) plotted along a (horizontal) time line. By calculating the time weighted average of the noise event, one approximates the SENEL. The actual methodology is somewhat more involved, but the idea is to express noise exposure as a function of both noise intensity and time exposure. This method differs somewhat from another airport noise measurement methodology used at some airports and known as CNEL (community noise exposure level)
A more comprehensive explanation of SENEL methodology can be obtained by speaking to the KSMO noise program specialist by phone or in person. This is well worth the time if one wishes to better understand how noise signatures are recorded at SMO. I found this helpful in understanding why various noise mitigation flying techniques were more or less effective in producing quiet (but still safe) arrival and departures in highly noise sensitive airport environments. Gulfstream developed a KSMO NADP for the G-IV/450 that works very well at SMO and I remember a period of time when NetJets were doing likewise with some of their fleet types. The Avantair folks made a valiant attempt to do the same with the P180, but with less success on arrival. IIRC, they WERE able to achieve some compliant arrivals but didn't think the technique used would be repeatable and safe for their line pilots in all reasonably expected wx conditions. (a lower drag, higher speed approach)
westhawk
Last edited by westhawk; 8th Oct 2013 at 01:02.
EDMJ:
Just so you know, special historic aircraft DO visit SMO from time to time by prior arrangement. I had the pleasure of riding with a friend on a B-25 he was flying for a historic foundation some years ago. I think the 118 SENEL he turned that day was pretty impressive for just two radials. I LOVE that kind of airport noise!
westhawk
Just so you know, special historic aircraft DO visit SMO from time to time by prior arrangement. I had the pleasure of riding with a friend on a B-25 he was flying for a historic foundation some years ago. I think the 118 SENEL he turned that day was pretty impressive for just two radials. I LOVE that kind of airport noise!
westhawk
