Sleep walking towards April 2014

[bestman]

My understanding is that, further to legislation adopted in 2011, pilots require both the relevant FAA and EASA licences to fly private, N registered, Europe based aircraft.

Most European countries exercised a derogation that effectively postponed this to April 2014.

Apparently this has already taken effect where commercial operations are concerned, so my question is why are people behaving as if this isn’t going to happen?

Is there a chance of a last minute ‘deal’ to keep all the N registered bizjets flying?

Does migrating onto the IOM register, or any other, improve the outlook?

Is there a belief that the rule is not going to be enforced? Where does that leave you with regard to insurance?

Are all the N reg Cirrus pilots without EASA IRs going to be limited to VFR overnight?

If you have a type rating on the FAA licence do you require it on the EASA licence?

Any thoughts much appreciated.

[ksjc]

An NBAA article from 2012 explains it, still relevant unless things have changed since then...

“Chicago Convention Article 33 explains that ICAO contracting states have to accept pilot certificates from other countries so long as each state’s pilot certificates meet the minimum standard set by ICAO,”

Here's the story...

Changes in EU Aviation Licensing Should Have Little Impact on NBAA Members | NBAA - National Business Aviation Association

[Mike Echo]

I don't think it as simple as EASA accepting the Chicago convention which they tend to ignore as EASA is not a contracting state. They make the individual countries do the dirty work.

The CAA website has a FAQ section;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/2330/h-FAQs%20May%202012.pdf
Item 26 which states;
"Under EU regulations a validation will be required for such a pilot to fly an aircraft registered outside the EU if the operator of the aircraft is based in the EU. For Example, if the Operator of an N-Registered aircraft is based in the UK, the holder of an FAA licence will have to hold a validation issued under EU regulations by the CAA to fly an N-registered aircraft in Europe"

I have not kept track of the latest developments (if any) as it does not affect me directly. The NBAA website is only focussed on N reg aircraft visiting the EU it does not answer the case of a EU based company with N reg aircraft.

Mike Echo

[Pace]

Most European countries exercised a derogation that effectively postponed this to April 2014.

Actually very few did do that so most are flying as if post 2014 and nothing has happened.
EASA have been completing the PPL side of things and are supposed to make an announcement soon on a bilateral converting one to the other soon.
One document I saw which I promised not to reveal and had a slip up of information looks quite hopeful.
The show is not over till the fat lady sings

Pace

[deefer dog]

I think "sleepwalking" is an understatement. Many non EU licenced pilots are already flying Third Country Registered aircraft illegally in Europe because not all States applied for the derogations as far forward to April 2014.

However its fair to say that many don't really understand the FCL aspects of the "Basic Regulation" (EU216/2008) and even the UK CAA's advise on the matter, as per the above link, is lacking in material content.

My understanding is that, further to legislation adopted in 2011, pilots require both the relevant FAA and EASA licences to fly private, N registered, Europe based aircraft.

The legislation came into effect in April 2012. In respect of FCL it has nothing whatsoever to do with where an aircraft is "based," and the term "based" is not even mentioned in the legislative text. (Quite why the UK CAA refer to an aircraft's "base" is a mystery to me).

Most European countries exercised a derogation that effectively postponed this to April 2014.

Certainly not the case. Some did postpone some parts of the legislation by applying for derogations, but one would need to check carefully which derogartions apply and which specific parts (Parts) of the legislation they relate to. Part FCL is only a fraction of it.

Is there a chance of a last minute ‘deal’ to keep all the N registered bizjets flying?

Only if the legislation is repealed. It is already the law. It came into force on 8th April 2012.

Does migrating onto the IOM register, or any other, improve the outlook?

For whom? I presume you refer to Part FCL and mean crew members who do not possess EU licences, but wish to fly M (or any other non European State registered) aircraft. Possibly, but the text of the legislation is quite clear, and it depends where the operator of the aircraft is resident. If the operator of a Third Country Registered aircraft, be it M, N or any other non EU register, is resident outside of the EU, then there is no requirement for the crew to have EU licences. It has nothing whatsoever to do with where the crew members reside, or even come from. N registered aircraft operated in the USA and flown by FAA licenced crew members will be unaffected, so too will M registered aircraft provided that the operator is not resident in the EU.

Is there a belief that the rule is not going to be enforced? Where does that leave you with regard to insurance?

I think a lot of operators should be asking themselves the same question

[B200Drvr]

Deefer Dog, How is M reg not European? and IOM validations are completely acceptable for EU resident private operations.

The EU is going to completely clatter themselves with regards GA, they are being very greedy and very stupid with all the petty things they are bringing in, our aircraft is based in HK, we fly to Europe 5 times a year and yet had to pay an exorbitant "import" fee so that we could fly to Europe!! We should do the same in HK with the likes of Vistajet who operate illegal charters out of here, make all European reg aircraft pay an import fee. Watch how quickly the big boys get onto the policy makers!!!

[bestman]

Thanks very much for all your thoughts.

If, as it seems, the Operator's residence is the crux of the issue, rather than where the aircraft is based, how is this defined? After all, my understanding is that a US trust is required to operate a N reg aircraft, if not based in the US. Clutching at straws?

[deefer dog]

B200dvr:

Isle of Man is neither a Member State nor an associate member of the European Union. Neither is it an EASA member state. With regard to the Basic Regulation, Isle of Man is a "Third Country" as is the USA.

Isle of Man Validations are accepted by EU member States who are members of ICAO. (EASA is not an ICAO member, by the way). The validations are issued in accordance with standards and recommended practices agreed by all ICAO member states.

bestman:

If, as it seems, the Operator's residence is the crux of the issue, rather than where the aircraft is based, how is this defined?

Enter EU216/2008 into a Google search and it will show at the top of the page. Atricles 4, 7, 8 and 9 are self explanatory.

After all, my understanding is that a US trust is required to operate a N reg aircraft, if not based in the US. Clutching at straws?

A US based trust, US corporation or US citizen may "own" a US-registered aircraft. Aircraft "base" does not feature in the equation. Neither of the aforementioned has anything whatsoever to do with "operation" of an aircraft. Please understand that the registered owner and the operator of an aircraft may not necessarily be the same. In the case of the Cirrus that you mentioned, the owner and operator may be the same, but in the case of most private jets (for example), the owner and operator are highly likely to be two different individuals or entities.

[bestman]

So, are the pilots of 'european' aircraft, operating on the N register for convenience, toast without the equivalent EASA licence by April 2014?

[apruneuk]

As things stand it looks like the answer is Yes. The law has been passed and all member states will need to comply with it within the next year or so. Some pilots who are not dual-rated are holding out for an eleventh hour reprieve to avoid the mass grounding of Third Counrty aircraft. The reality is that it will be pretty easy for EASA licenced crew to dual rate and keep these aircraft flying but it will take considerably longer for Third Country crew to gain EASA licences. If I was flying an N-reg jet for an operator based in Europe I know what I'd be doing right now....

AP

[debiassi]

Glass Half Empty Glass Half Full

I guess there is an upside to this although sadly it looks like this is only for dual rated pilots.
My take is that there will be a major purge on anything N registered flying in the EU after April 2014, especially if the radio operator sounds like they could well be domiciled within the EU.
I personally know a number of BizJet owner/operators who fly non commercially throughout Europe.
They are in their twilight years and going back to school simply wouldnt be an option.
My take again will be they will either ignore the regulation until such a time as they are forced to account for themselves, and then probably employ the services of a dual rated pilot to sit in the left seat.

[Globalstream]

My take again will be they will either ignore the regulation until such a time as they are forced to account for themselves, and then probably employ the services of a dual rated pilot to sit in the left seat.

-Debiassi

The ruling applies to all pilots domiciled within the EASA member states, regardless of seat position.

Whether EASA have the will and the teeth to enforce this ruling is another matter entirely. I would be surprised. So far, it seems they won`t and I`m sure foreign licensed pilots are quite safe insofar as license enforcement. The real issue is insurance. An insurance claim involving a non- EASA licensed crew and an EASA based aircraft... I wouldn`t want to be counting on that payout.

[moonym20]

... And what of those flying on SIC ratings? These will not be recognised by EASA.

What of professional FAA crews flying PIC in King Air's and any other TP aircraft below 12,500lbs.... TR required to fly these on EASA tickets.

Communicating with EASA and the CAA on some of the possible issues is a real nightmare at times.

[deefer dog]

The ruling applies to all pilots domiciled within the EASA member states, regardless of seat position.

What a lot of tosh you write! Have you actually bothered to read the legislation - or even part FCL? Clearly you have not. It matters not one toss where any pilot, left or right seat, lives, is domiciled, resides or sleeps the night!!

The two pertinent aspects relate to where the "operator" of the aircraft resides, and the state of registry of the aircraft.

[Cobalt]

The law, while clearly worded, depends on the interpretation of "operator" where the aircraft is not operated under an AOC.

The aviation authorities interpret this in many ways, incorrectly including the "pilot" (Ireland, see here, point 13), and they are the ones who will take you to court, unfortunately.

If they get it wrong, no wonder the pilot / owner / operator community get it wrong, I can't really blame them.

It becomes a bit more interesting with regard to Part OPS, where any "operator" of a twin turboprop or any jet effectively needs a mini-AOC. For anyone flying around in a privately owned Jet or King Air, a lot of money hinges on that, and I would expect "workarounds" such as special operator structures outside the EU to be created here because there is much more money at stake than for an individual pilot's licence, and they can pay for the legal advice needed.

[deefer dog]

Point well noted Cobalt. The wording of the text (in the English translation at least) is crystal clear, so it surprises me when authorities such as the Irish and UK CAA still publish misleading summaries.

Yes, definition of "operator" may cause some difficulties, but only for owner pilots of small aircraft. In the case of larger types the operator of the aircraft is required to hold "operating approvals" in order to operate, for example, in RVSM, MNPS airspace etc.

The holder of any such "operating approval" would have little difficulty, IMHO, proving that he/she/it is the operator of the aircraft, and where he/she/it resides.

[debiassi]

FAA Licence Holders

Ok I read the initial post and thought maybe its not specific enough.
I think its relating to FAA licence holders that are domiciled within the EU.
Now if this is the case, then im pretty sure that after 2014, legistlation will prevent them from exercising their priviliges unless they have an EASA. Equivalent licence/rating etc.
A good example would be for instance flying airways using the priviliges of an FAA IR without having the EASA equivalent.
This is the area that I think will be policed by some countries more than others but only time will tell.
There are a number of interesting conundrums im sure.

[deefer dog]

. I think its relating to FAA licence holders that are domiciled within the EU

.

Jesus, another one who has not read the legislation! It has NOTHING to do with where the crew reside.

[bestman]

Thanks for your thoughts so far.

In order help clarify the position, in some evidently muddy waters, maybe I could ask about a 'hypothetical' case...

N reg bizjet, operating under a flag of convenience, whose only presence outside Euroland is the required Delaware trust.

Captain, obviously type rated, FAA ATPL only. Copilot, SIC rating, FAA CPL/IR only. What does the post April 2014 future hold for these two?

[deefer dog]

In order help clarify the position, in some evidently muddy waters, maybe I could ask about a 'hypothetical' case...

N reg bizjet, operating under a flag of convenience, whose only presence outside Euroland is the required Delaware trust.

Captain, obviously type rated, FAA ATPL only. Copilot, SIC rating, FAA CPL/IR only. What does the post April 2014 future hold for these two?

With the greatest of respect bestman, you can obviously write, so why not read the legislation and answer the question for yourself? Its written in plain, simple English!

What "flag of convenience" will an N registered aircraft be operating on? An N reg aircraft will be registered in the US. No aircraft may be placed on more than one register.

An N registered aircraft is, in respect of the legislation, a "Third Country Registration." It therefore depends, in the main, on where the "operator of the aircraft" is resident. If the operator is resident in the EU then the crew will need EU licences. By the sound of it you need to get one....do it soon!