Hawker 4000, Challenger 300 or Falcon 50EX?
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Hawker 4000, Challenger 300 or Falcon 50EX?
Hi everybody,
our company already operates a G150 and thanks to this forum we have chosen this type. Our boss has just expanded his company and he needs a new midsize jet for coverage of range 3000 to 3200 NM with a good payload and comfortable cabin size with price up to 15M. Most trips will be from west Europe to post-Soviet Union countries.
We are choosing between three candidates:
Hawker 4000 - great range with max payload, good variable cost, great service inspection interval, 2 IRS, low cabin ALT, flat rate to ISA+22, auto-throttle. But there is a big question about the company future. What I know from last news they have canceled all warranty for 1A and 4000. But they are going to continue support all maintenance and spare parts.
Challenger 300 - great comfortable cabin, good residual value, great RWY performance, CAT II. But noisy cabin, no auto-throttle, lower range with max payload.
and Falcon 50EX - low price, great range with max payload. But smaller cabin, higher variable cost.
I would appreciate any experience and advices.
our company already operates a G150 and thanks to this forum we have chosen this type. Our boss has just expanded his company and he needs a new midsize jet for coverage of range 3000 to 3200 NM with a good payload and comfortable cabin size with price up to 15M. Most trips will be from west Europe to post-Soviet Union countries.
We are choosing between three candidates:
Hawker 4000 - great range with max payload, good variable cost, great service inspection interval, 2 IRS, low cabin ALT, flat rate to ISA+22, auto-throttle. But there is a big question about the company future. What I know from last news they have canceled all warranty for 1A and 4000. But they are going to continue support all maintenance and spare parts.
Challenger 300 - great comfortable cabin, good residual value, great RWY performance, CAT II. But noisy cabin, no auto-throttle, lower range with max payload.
and Falcon 50EX - low price, great range with max payload. But smaller cabin, higher variable cost.
I would appreciate any experience and advices.
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First question, is the $15 million budget firm?
Reason I asked, is that there are at least three Falcon 900EXs on the market today under 20 million USD;
Serial number 025, asking 16.950 USD
Serial number 031, asking 14.500 USD
Serial number 048, asking 15.500 USD
You might check into these aircraft, not only will a 900EX meet all of your requirements, but will greatly exceed them.
Go to this link for more information on the above aircraft.
Jets For Sale
Reason I asked, is that there are at least three Falcon 900EXs on the market today under 20 million USD;
Serial number 025, asking 16.950 USD
Serial number 031, asking 14.500 USD
Serial number 048, asking 15.500 USD
You might check into these aircraft, not only will a 900EX meet all of your requirements, but will greatly exceed them.
Go to this link for more information on the above aircraft.
Jets For Sale
Last edited by con-pilot; 9th Jan 2013 at 16:34.
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we were also considering this aircraft but it has higher variable cost and MTOW. And we are looking for a newer airplane.
btw how is Falcon's 50EX/900EX dispatch and service reliability?
btw how is Falcon's 50EX/900EX dispatch and service reliability?
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Challenger 300 - great comfortable cabin, good residual value, great RWY performance, CAT II. But noisy cabin, no auto-throttle, lower range with max payload.
Why do you need an autothrottle? Just asking...
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I think if it was me I'd either be spending the extra money and get a 2000EX or go for one of the older 900EX.
Your situation may change in a few years again, I'd rather have an aircraft that can do all possibilities rather than an aircraft that may not good enough this time next year!
Your situation may change in a few years again, I'd rather have an aircraft that can do all possibilities rather than an aircraft that may not good enough this time next year!
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It's sad that you have to solve the noise this way. But yes sure it's a solution to separate galley and close the door in the lavatory.
The auto-throttle is not necessary but it helps to reduce a workload in complicated situations or in bad weather condition. Just wondering it's standard in comparable jets.
The auto-throttle is not necessary but it helps to reduce a workload in complicated situations or in bad weather condition. Just wondering it's standard in comparable jets.
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I would not consider the Hawker 4000. Less than acceptable support and uncertain future!
The 300 is a fantastic airplane but for that kind of mission, maybe it's also worth considering a G200 ...
CL300 is too shortlegged for 3000 NM with decent alternate in the CIS.
The 300 is a fantastic airplane but for that kind of mission, maybe it's also worth considering a G200 ...
CL300 is too shortlegged for 3000 NM with decent alternate in the CIS.
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would agree
that a Hawker 4000 is just the same as throwing money down the drain..
Falcon 50 EX ist an excellent aircraft, you probably can get a good one for around 5 - 7 Mio USD...smaller cabin though and only 3200 NM max
Older F900EX, excellent as well and within price range...
If you do not need the cabin of a F900 series.....THEN...
well I would look at nice F2000EX EASy, preferably fresh out of a C-Check or with a C Check included...install the winglets, get the SB for the higher MTOW..
et voila...you will have a "new" F2000LX...
the absolutley best and most reliable bird in that class...for all practical purposes the same range as a F900EX...
the cockpit will be easily upgradable to the newest regs envisioned with EASy II
dream to fly...no problems whatsoever...the folks in the cabin love it, because of the comfort and probably the quietest cabin in production today..
may defintely be in your price range...plus the lowest DOCs in that class
as the old saying goes...if you need constant 3000 - 3300NM range in all directions plus reserves for all kinds of weather you need a 3800 to 4000 NM bird anyway...
Falcon 50 EX ist an excellent aircraft, you probably can get a good one for around 5 - 7 Mio USD...smaller cabin though and only 3200 NM max
Older F900EX, excellent as well and within price range...
If you do not need the cabin of a F900 series.....THEN...
well I would look at nice F2000EX EASy, preferably fresh out of a C-Check or with a C Check included...install the winglets, get the SB for the higher MTOW..
et voila...you will have a "new" F2000LX...
the absolutley best and most reliable bird in that class...for all practical purposes the same range as a F900EX...
the cockpit will be easily upgradable to the newest regs envisioned with EASy II
dream to fly...no problems whatsoever...the folks in the cabin love it, because of the comfort and probably the quietest cabin in production today..
may defintely be in your price range...plus the lowest DOCs in that class
as the old saying goes...if you need constant 3000 - 3300NM range in all directions plus reserves for all kinds of weather you need a 3800 to 4000 NM bird anyway...
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btw how is Falcon's 50EX/900EX dispatch and service reliability?
Oh, a cabin cleaning crew plugged a vacuum cleaner (Hoover) into a passenger's electrical socket and it popped a circuit breaker. Just reset the breaker, no problem.
The 900EX not as much experience as with the 50, but we never had to cancel a trip due to maintenance or lack of parts. I know that some operators have had problems with part availability.
But all in all, no worse than the other types of aircraft we are discussing.
My suggestion is to have a fly-off between the types of aircraft you are looking at, discuss as you are here with the operators about their pros and cons, then sit down and compare which aircraft will fit you operational requirements the best for the value of the money spent.
We did that and settled for a final fly-off between the G-IVSP and the Falcon 900EX. The Falcon 900EX won the competition due to its superior high and hot airport performance, plus the boss's piece of mind for the three engines on the Pacific and Atlantic Ocean crossing we did.
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If you've got USD15m to play with the world is your oyster. F900EX, CL604 are both within your reach and should make your mission profile.
H4000: Value will most likely drop like a stone. If you are going to pursue this option further get one that's had the block point upgrade done. Oh, and there's not many EASA certified ones out there.
F50EX: Bit of a dinosaur compared to the HA4T and CL30 but a lot of aeroplane for the money - and as long as you use it fairly regularly it'll outlast the cockroaches. I've seen some dipping under $5m.
CL30: Holding value very well, and a good amount to chose from. Again, a lot of aircraft but not nececerally good value.
You haven't mentioned the G200 which is nicely in your budget and will also meet your mission requirement.
H4000: Value will most likely drop like a stone. If you are going to pursue this option further get one that's had the block point upgrade done. Oh, and there's not many EASA certified ones out there.
F50EX: Bit of a dinosaur compared to the HA4T and CL30 but a lot of aeroplane for the money - and as long as you use it fairly regularly it'll outlast the cockroaches. I've seen some dipping under $5m.
CL30: Holding value very well, and a good amount to chose from. Again, a lot of aircraft but not nececerally good value.
You haven't mentioned the G200 which is nicely in your budget and will also meet your mission requirement.
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Any thought given to an Embraer Legacy 600 or 650? The 650 might be a bit out of range, but the 600 gets you a lot of airplane for the money. Looking at asking price (and we all know that NOBODY pays asking price anymore!), you can find them from 17 million US on down. It is a bit of a runway hog, and doesn't do 450, but man, the people in back paying the bills get a Gulfstream cabin for a Citation price. Thirteen passengers if you need the seats. Have a good friend that flies one, and yes, it lacks some goodies like auto throttles, but it is functional. He has almost perfect dispatch reliability, and the aircraft owner just loves the cabin and the baggage compartment. They looked at the 300, and an older 900EX, and decided that bang for the buck the Legacy took the prize for them.
All that being said, this is a great problem to have! Congratulations!
All that being said, this is a great problem to have! Congratulations!
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DA-900 EX, the pilots love it and so do the pax, the extra space for the pax and baggage on trips around 3,000 nm will be very much appreciated. Also a very workable galley and possibly two loo's. The 50 EX is great but a little cramped on long trips when the folks that pay the bills want to get some sleep.
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Yeah, DA900EX seems to be good choice especially when DOC are almost the same for 900EX and 50EX ($200 difference only?). There is a few of them on the market around 15M. May we should really consider this one too.