Ryanair buys new private jet to shuttle staff
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, stress free, to make it simple, is the jet used to transport an outside party or will the company be paid for those flights?
No, for internal use, there is no charge to a second or third party, there is only a direct operating cost.
So clearly no AOC required.
If a large manufactur has a breakdown of a plant (read airplane) he can use the corporate jet to ferry engineers (read aircraft mechanics or pilots) to his plant in order to continue his business.
This is not a commercial operation, period.
CK
No, for internal use, there is no charge to a second or third party, there is only a direct operating cost.
So clearly no AOC required.
If a large manufactur has a breakdown of a plant (read airplane) he can use the corporate jet to ferry engineers (read aircraft mechanics or pilots) to his plant in order to continue his business.
This is not a commercial operation, period.
CK
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK mainly
Posts: 322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, if anyone sees a hilton black pen down the side its mine I flew this one interesting they bought a very low houred one delivered 2009 ish .it was going for 9.75m I wonder what they paid for it....anyway...
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stressed might have a valid point
Can an air transport undertaking, especially one that has an AOC, operate (within EU land) occasional flights as PRIVATE. ????
Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
If contractors, ie pilots are carried on this aircraft, then they might be considered not to be employees of the owning company. After all thats why Ryanair are using contractors, to avoid any Taxable or Social costs.
Perhaps they need a POC not an AOC, after all I operate according to Mr Caymans rules.
If the aircraft is operated on a Manx registration, then it must be ONLY private operations, and according to the Manx requirements.
I am not certain if Mr Manx requires an Operations Manual, certainly Mr Caymen and Mr Bermuda do. They can get very upset if operations are conducted outside thier rules of engagement.
To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved. But would suggest that real deep professional advice be taken, (which I am sure it has.)
Glf
Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
If contractors, ie pilots are carried on this aircraft, then they might be considered not to be employees of the owning company. After all thats why Ryanair are using contractors, to avoid any Taxable or Social costs.
Perhaps they need a POC not an AOC, after all I operate according to Mr Caymans rules.
If the aircraft is operated on a Manx registration, then it must be ONLY private operations, and according to the Manx requirements.
I am not certain if Mr Manx requires an Operations Manual, certainly Mr Caymen and Mr Bermuda do. They can get very upset if operations are conducted outside thier rules of engagement.
To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved. But would suggest that real deep professional advice be taken, (which I am sure it has.)
Glf
Can an air transport undertaking, especially one that has an AOC, operate (within EU land) occasional flights as PRIVATE. ????
Ironically, as others have hinted, it is probably more "illegal" to (potentially) charge for sandwiches on the flights...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the
flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
There is no legal reason to have a private A/C on an AOC and those that do are just misinformed or misguided. The only advantage is fuel tax, but there are ways around that too for private aircraft.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved.
Everything you need to know regarding the IOM register, what their aircraft may do, when, how, and for whom, and the regulatory structure they work to, is available on their web site.
In the regs you will find precisely how such an operation could be worked as private.
IOM reg may not be for you, but have you ever stopped to wonder just why it is so popular?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Est
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IOM reg may not be for you, but have you ever stopped to wonder just why it is so popular?
I'm pretty sure the FR operation on the LJ is fine, but there are plenty of M reg aeroplanes doing dodgy charters. I hear Special Branch are now being drafted in by the CAA as the problem is so overwhelming. The UK CAA are now having to get involved as the manx auth don't have the infrastructure or resources to deal with it.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... but there are plenty of M reg aeroplanes doing dodgy charters.
...the problem is so overwhelming.
A pretty bold statement. If you actually KNOW that to be a fact, then why do you not tip off the authorities? If I was a legitimate charter operator, I certainly would.
I would suspect that it is actually less likely that IOM aircraft are used for dodgy charters due to the fact that everyone knows that the IOM register does not cater for CAT. I don't doubt it happens though, but I'm sure it's not as prevalent as you suggest, and I'm certain that the problem is not of an "overwhelming" nature.
And another thing; Why special branch - what do they have to do with it?
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Just a thought
When MOL or his Governmental Affairs people go to Brussels, does the Learjet take them to Charleroi to save on fees?
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only advantage is fuel tax, but there are ways around that too for private aircraft.
does the Learjet take them to Charleroi to save on fees?
Which is pain when its RYR rushhour...
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They certainly save money on the crew, first officers have to be rated and are only employed during the busy period then dumped at the end of the season, but they dangle the carrot stating you may get an opportunity to move sideways on to the airline fleet 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: EGGD KFXE EGBJ
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the nice man at ryanair has created a major business that employes crew for 300 aircraft, why would he want to use his aircraft to fly crew around, what am I missing, do you deserve the honour of working for such a worthy boss, your comments are just joke right !
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London Whipsnade Wildlife Park
Posts: 5,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is used as a work horse and allegedly a bit tatty on the inside. Operated to maintain the network schedule by moving parts, engineers and crew as required.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sooty take a chill pill
I operate a M reg aircraft, thus might be considered to have a working knowledge of the M system, combined with a Cayman and Bermudan validation, also understand their systems too.
My reference to the corporate structure is related to the distance between corporate entities as well as the relationship between the contract staff, (and who employes them), and the oners of the aircraft.
Glf
My reference to the corporate structure is related to the distance between corporate entities as well as the relationship between the contract staff, (and who employes them), and the oners of the aircraft.
Glf
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FNPL...
Why would an anti terrorist organisation get involved in investigating aircraft operators you plonker!
If you're going to make stuff up at least make it believable.
Why would an anti terrorist organisation get involved in investigating aircraft operators you plonker!
If you're going to make stuff up at least make it believable.
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's really simple.
If Ryans aircraft and more specifically the sale of seats on it are NOT available to the public generally it is a private operation and does not require an AOC.
You may operate a B747 in private on a PPL if you wish. The moment you charge a "public" even unto a token dollar the regulatory for hire or reward the roof falls in. Company staff, parts and equipment on company business or jollies yet do not fall into the net. The Tax man might have something to say about the jollies but the regulator is not interested.
Standards are an entirely separate issue. However in most countries the 'standards' for Part 25 type aircraft maintenance are similar whether private or "airline" crew training and SMS is another story.
I have operated (now retired) four Part 25 AOC's the most recent with Challenger and Gulfstream. So I know of what I speak.
And yes the "private" jets illegally operated in charter are a danger to everyone, dumb owners and complicit and even dumber pilots don't seem to understand the seriously negative financial consequences if it goes pear shaped.
Edit: for dumb pilot, add idiot.
If Ryans aircraft and more specifically the sale of seats on it are NOT available to the public generally it is a private operation and does not require an AOC.
You may operate a B747 in private on a PPL if you wish. The moment you charge a "public" even unto a token dollar the regulatory for hire or reward the roof falls in. Company staff, parts and equipment on company business or jollies yet do not fall into the net. The Tax man might have something to say about the jollies but the regulator is not interested.
Standards are an entirely separate issue. However in most countries the 'standards' for Part 25 type aircraft maintenance are similar whether private or "airline" crew training and SMS is another story.
I have operated (now retired) four Part 25 AOC's the most recent with Challenger and Gulfstream. So I know of what I speak.
And yes the "private" jets illegally operated in charter are a danger to everyone, dumb owners and complicit and even dumber pilots don't seem to understand the seriously negative financial consequences if it goes pear shaped.
Edit: for dumb pilot, add idiot.
Last edited by gaunty; 1st Nov 2012 at 10:40.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
that even some posters thought that the legal department of ryanair had not considered the question of legality is ludicrous.
too many people here with too much time to spare, too little knowledge of the subject matter, and a liking for too much tittle tattle.
edited to add that I paid too little attention to avoid the inclusion of too many too's
too many people here with too much time to spare, too little knowledge of the subject matter, and a liking for too much tittle tattle.
edited to add that I paid too little attention to avoid the inclusion of too many too's
Last edited by sooty3694; 1st Nov 2012 at 22:23.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tittle tattle? too much Downton Abbey..
Quite impressed that Ryanair has a contingency plan for shifting crew around when there's a cock up. That job would be like being Maverick in the alert5 aircraft. Jonny's pulled a sickie in Genoa cos he's pissed - launch Maverick in the alert5 with Shattered and Newbie to go rescue the jet!
Quite impressed that Ryanair has a contingency plan for shifting crew around when there's a cock up. That job would be like being Maverick in the alert5 aircraft. Jonny's pulled a sickie in Genoa cos he's pissed - launch Maverick in the alert5 with Shattered and Newbie to go rescue the jet!
