Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.
Reload this Page >

How likely is a SAFA check?

Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc. The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.

How likely is a SAFA check?

Old 23rd Sep 2012, 10:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL410
Age: 21
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I had my fun with a Danish inspector who was convinced that pilots had to have their logbooks with them(!) When I said that he could go down the line of SAS aircraft and not find a single logbook and that SAS had an electronic logging system, he told me that "the CAA has not approved any electronic logbooks."

Then when checking my license, told me that a Danish TRE could not extend the validity of my rating, so that my rating was actually expired(!)

I phoned my national authority and asked them to ring the Danish CAA and explain what JAA was all about.

In the end I just answered in short replies, handed him things he asked for and wrote my own report immediately and sent it to the Danish CAA.

I suspect they sent him to some courses after that!
mushroom69 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 14:31
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Obligation to carry / present documents and recording of flight time

FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.


AMC1 FCL.050 is more specific in how this should be done. The conclusion is: Yes, you may use an electronic log in an EASA compliant format, however, it only becomes an official document when printed and signed!



FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.

I can assure you that the inspectors interpretation of "without undue delay" means before he's leaving the aircraft!

It is advisable to carry a print out with you (i.e to proof recency!).


@mushroom 69: I don't know about other countries, but on Swiss licences only hand entries of Swiss examiners and only for the purpose of revalidation are accepted!

Cheers,
g5tom
g5tom is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 14:50
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dark side of the force
Age: 54
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Forgot what we said, after studying the accident on D-CMMM anyone can fly in europe with no docīs and be safe.
transilvana is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 18:06
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FL410
Age: 21
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.


AMC1 FCL.050 is more specific in how this should be done. The conclusion is: Yes, you may use an electronic log in an EASA compliant format, however, it only becomes an official document when printed and signed!

NOW PRINTED AND SIGNED, BUT CERTAINLY NOT CARRIED WITH ME.


FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.

WITHOUT UNDO DELAY DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO CARRY YOUR LOGBOOK. WHEN REQUESTED, A COPY CAN BE SENT TO THE REQUESTING AUTHORITY. CARRYING THE LOG WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA. IN CASE OF AN ACCIDENT OR INCIDENT, THE LOG COULD BE DAMAGED/LOST AND THEN THE RECORD IS OF NO USE TO ANYONE...AS IT IS THEN LOST.

I can assure you that the inspectors interpretation of "without undue delay" means before he's leaving the aircraft!

WELL I GUESS I WILL HAVE AN INTERESTING TIME WHEN NEXT IN SWITZERLAND. AFTER 3 RAMP CHECKS, NONE OF THE INSPECTORS HAVE REQUESTED A LOGBOOK IN ANY FORM.

It is advisable to carry a print out with you (i.e to proof recency!).

HAPPILY I AM IN THE SAME AIRCRAFT, SO I CAN JUST SHOW THEM THE TECH LOG.....


@mushroom 69: I don't know about other countries, but on Swiss licences only hand entries of Swiss examiners and only for the purpose of revalidation are accepted!

I HAVE HEARD THAT IS THE SAME ISSUE FOR GERMANS. IT IS A RECURRING THEME WHEN WE LEAVE THE SIM AT FSI OR BOMBARDIER. THE EXAMINERS ARE ABLE TO SIGN MY CERTIFICATE (SWEDISH) THE DANISH ONES AND THE UK ONES, BUT NOT THE GERMAN ONES......THEY ALWAYS HAVE TO SEND THEIR PAPERWORK TO THE LBA AND THEN RECEIVE A NEW CERTIFICATE.

MINE IS ISSUED FOR 5 YEARS AND THE RATINGS ARE EXTENDED ON THE BACK. MAKES SENSE TO ME, BUT I SUPPOSE SOME CAA'S STILL WANT MORE CONTROL. JAA, EASA.......SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING THINGS STANDARDISED TO A GREATER DEGREE....NOT REALLY WORKING THAT WAY.

BY THE WAY, I DON' T USUALLY WRITE IN LARGE LETTERS, BUT TO DIFFERENTIATE FROM THE ORIGINAL....NOT SHOUTING.
Cheers,
g5tom

THANKS FOR THE EASA INPUT.....HAVE PRINTED IT ALL OUT, AND PUT IT IN A BINDER!
mushroom69 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 18:55
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 46
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How often do these checks occur?
randomly... very little to no chance being an sts hosp , relative little chance having an outboand flight plan the next three hours, more chances to enjoy the check at last flight of the day , even better chances when its obvious from the airport od dep that you operate close to the edge when it comes to range capability.

of course this applies only to commercial operators and major airports. being private on a small regional field- nobody cares as long nothing happens.

cheers !
aerobat77 is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2012, 22:22
  #26 (permalink)  

ECON cruise, LR cruise...
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 51
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have never had any trouble on a SAFA-inspection, and never had one that lasted more than 15 min.

I completely fail to understand why peeps are concerned about these checks - as long as you just stick by the regs and carry the paperwork required, ie do a completely normal planning and aircraft pre-departure inspection, there is nothing in a SAFA-check that can catch you unawares.

Examples stated above... Worn "exit"-sign (sorry, but a bit of a no-brainer in my book), checking each and every NOTAM (oh, so we don't do that before departure??), cargo-net required (shouldn't we know what is required equipment on our aircraft anyways??), No O2 used if above 410 (so it's ok to pick which regs we want to follow and which ones are just too much bovver?) - I'm sorry, probably just me, but the above leaves me puzzled...
Empty Cruise is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 08:15
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 56
Posts: 2,409
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I completely fail to understand why peeps are concerned about these checks - as long as you just stick by the regs and carry the paperwork required, ie do a completely normal planning and aircraft pre-departure inspection, there is nothing in a SAFA-check that can catch you unawares.
Last time they complained about a bare-metal transponder antenna on the belly of our aircraft: "this will corrode quickly and stop working" the inspector told me. I took a close-up photo of the antenna (including the "do not paint" label) and attached it to my comments of the report.
I think this post by "what next" explains a lot. Another guy was checked and they found a small crack in the package of one of the life vests. That was a finding in the french inspectors book. I saw a picture and I would have thought this vest is serviceable....

I had a SAFA check where they complained that I use "Flight Safety" checklists on my airplane. There is a FS logo on the checklist accompanied with a Cessna Checklist, cause Cessna uses FSIs help to create them. This was worth 30 minutes of discussion and in the end I needed to call Team Sovereign, put that 'gentleman' on the phone let Cessna explain them what was clearly written on the checklist (FAA approved). At our expense of course, calling the US from Austria on my german mobile isnīt exactly cheap. I had tried to convince him by using the FM, which contains the same checklist without the FSI logo, but that did not work.

I had checks in the UK (Stansted IIRC), Paris, Vienna, Stuttgart and a try in Turkey, where a young guy in Jeans and a sort of Hawaii shirt entered the airplane with our guests, not saying a word or showing ID... my colleague threw him off the airplane (I was loading baggs at the time), we departed to another airport in Turkey and had a 'fiesta' with another authority there cause we 'avoided' a SAFA check.

Some of the inspectors apparently do think they are policeman amd some just do their work in a proffesional manner. I have no probs with type 2, but type one I can`t stand.

Last edited by His dudeness; 27th Sep 2012 at 09:17.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 08:33
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Empty cruise,Worn "exit"-sign (sorry, but a bit of a no-brainer in my book), as I mentioned, there were 2 additional markings indicating the emergency exit, how many more you need?

And, cargo-net required (shouldn't we know what is required equipment on our aircraft anyways??), yes I know and a cargo net isn't part of it.
Clearly you are not familair on this type of airplane (LJ60), the cargo compartment is seperated by a bulkhead from the cabin, 2 suitcases and it's full and no more space for a cargo net.
There are no rings in the airframe for a cargo net as the airplane simply isn't outfitted with rings.

It would be completely different if loose cargo is in a cabin and can move around.

In the bagage area nothing can move around, it is so small so therefore as per manufacturing standards and obviously accepted through JAR/FAR 25 standards no rings for cargo nets, period.

Hope you "unpuzzled" now.

CK
Captain Kaboom is online now  
Old 27th Sep 2012, 12:30
  #29 (permalink)  

ECON cruise, LR cruise...
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: MIRSI hold - give or take...
Age: 51
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have been fortunate never to have any of the "where is the paint on the do-not-paint antenna"-types. True, those would get me ticked off as well.

Checklists - true, even if the checklist is identical to the AFM, the logo will be an issue, needs to either be operator-approved (through your CAA) or manufacturers original. Pedantic, I concur, maybe even silly - but flip this on it's head from the perspective of you and the operator. Could the use of a "non-approved" checklist be something that could be used against you in a court of law? It would be unlikely to be make-or-break in a prosecution, but it is something that could be used to build an image of a less-than-diligent operation, even though completely undeserved. Bottom line - wouldn't use anything with any logo on but that of the operator or the OEM, for the reason stated above.

CK,

1) Worn "exit"-sign... How many do you think Bombardier think are needed? Or have they taken to installing markings and signs on the aircraft not required by the certifying authority?

2) Cargo net - well, what does your loading manual or limitations-section say? If you can show the inspector that the loading manual doesn't describe a cargo-net (as it probably wouldn't, given no rings are fitted), then that should silence them. If not - well, agreed, then they are incompetent fools that don't understand how things work. Would tick me off mightily, too
Empty Cruise is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 07:31
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Good EC, we are on the same frequency again!

Again about the exit signs, what I have not made clear, this airplane was a good 14 years old.
Once upon a time it had been German registered,not at the this time though.
In those days one of the placards was installed in the German language, everything was bilangual, lesser quality stickers then the original Bombardiers sticker and this was the issue.
So not original JAR25 stuff.

My point was, if this is the worst they could find on a 14 year old airplane I was pretty pleased.
They started with all the paperworks, Jepps were checked, FMS databases, manuals, no findings, a great start.

And, my best, many moons ago in the US in a LJ24 I got a rampcheck after landing when the FAA inspector noted the tip tanks were empty so we ran out of fuel!
Got written up, the captain at this time went along and sent a beautifull sarcastic letter to the FAA with a copy of the manual stating the tip tanks had to be at least half empty during landing or they potentialy break off during landing.
Not to mention there were 2 wing tanks that feed the engines and a fuselage tank additional to the tip tanks.
This was funny (afterwards)

Totally agree, everything has to be legal, it is your licence and a perfect good start is WX, notams, put a check mark on them, W & B and databases, has to be in order.

Stay legal! alltough it is getting harder in those troubled days CK
Captain Kaboom is online now  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 12:18
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: EASA wonderland
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In theory, accordind to ICAO doc 8335, checks should be carried out on commercial aircraft only.
I found on EASA website this:
"The principles of the SAFA Programme are simple: in each ECAC State, foreign aircraft (ECAC or non-ECAC) can be subject to a ramp inspection, chiefly concerned with the aircraft documents and manuals, flight crew licenses, the apparent condition of the aircraft and the presence and condition of mandatory cabin safety equipment. The references for these inspections are contained in the Standards of ICAO Annexes 1 (Personnel Licensing), 6 (Operations of Aircraft) and 8 (Airworthiness of Aircraft)."

And I think they normally check private operators as well.
Lowmick is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 13:07
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And I think they normally check private operators as well.
They most certainly do check private operators, however they dont appear to know about Annex 6 Chapter 2!

Mutt
mutt is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 13:51
  #33 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ProCard

With regards to the recency of experience verification debate I would think a "ProCard" such as those issued by FlightSafety or CAE would suffice?

The ProCard has shows type and date of last training event. Anyone know if this is suitable proof?

By the way...just returned to US after stops in LSZH, EGLF, EDDF and EDDM and no SAFA check. Did have to provide aircraft Noise Certificate at EDDF though.
ksjc is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 14:08
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Delsey
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With regards to the recency of experience verification debate I would think a "ProCard" such as those issued by FlightSafety or CAE would suffice?
I can see the inspectors laughing that one off!
500 above is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2012, 14:53
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Milano
Age: 52
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Did have to provide aircraft Noise Certificate at EDDF though.
Germany is pretty keen on the whole noise issue. Even my D registered glider has to have a Noise Certificate (yes, it does have an auxiliary engine!).
Dg800 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2014, 01:32
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry for the thread resurrection.

Can anyone point me to the European regulation that details flight crew responsibilities on one of these ramp checks?

After all night over the Atlantic an hour long quiz by a bureaucrat is not high on my list of priorities.

After dispensing with the niceties and producing my license I'm kinda' like "Look around, fill your boots, but I'm going to the hotel."

Appreciate any input on cutting the red tape and walking.
altiplano is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2014, 04:36
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Knock yourself out: Safety Assessment Of Foreign Aircraft (EC SAFA Programme) | EASA
Denti is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2014, 20:27
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Peaks
Age: 44
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Safa motto should read:
"we're not happy til you're not happy"
capt.sparrow is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2014, 12:08
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Around FL380
Age: 37
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Time limit?

Merphy is always among us...
I landed at LFPB today and I had a ramp check.
The check was good but it took 2 and a half hours!!!
If we were limited by duty time this was really bad.
Is it normal??

Imri
imriozer is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2014, 19:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 56
Posts: 2,409
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
2.5hrs ? Did they enter your airplane and immediately went on strike ?
His dudeness is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.