Netjets Passenger Preflight Procedures
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Netjets Passenger Preflight Procedures
Hi,
What are the typical boarding procedures for Netjets passengers flying on a ultra-long haul international flight, say on a 7X or Gulfstream. Need some estimates for my university report.
1. Does security screening of the passengers take place just outside the aircraft door (metal detector) by pilots or FBO staff?
2. What about baggage screening?
3. Are the following estimates an accurate representation of such a passenger preflight phase (for up to 10 passengers)?
Terminal Preflight Phase
Buffer for walking 2min
Check-in & Baggage 3min
Security 2min
Border Control 2min
Boarding 1min
Total time passenger spends prior to departure 10min
What are the typical boarding procedures for Netjets passengers flying on a ultra-long haul international flight, say on a 7X or Gulfstream. Need some estimates for my university report.
1. Does security screening of the passengers take place just outside the aircraft door (metal detector) by pilots or FBO staff?
2. What about baggage screening?
3. Are the following estimates an accurate representation of such a passenger preflight phase (for up to 10 passengers)?
Terminal Preflight Phase
Buffer for walking 2min
Check-in & Baggage 3min
Security 2min
Border Control 2min
Boarding 1min
Total time passenger spends prior to departure 10min
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Not for NJ, but usually (if there is no significant delay from handlers/customs/border) and you are not parked very far from terminal, and you dont have tons of baggage, then you can count 15-20 minutes from pax arriving terminal, to engine start.
But this estimate is heavily dependant on variables (slots/location/time of season/pax willingness to depart quickly) - theoretically and not counting Russia, then our usual estimate is 30 minutes.
But this estimate is heavily dependant on variables (slots/location/time of season/pax willingness to depart quickly) - theoretically and not counting Russia, then our usual estimate is 30 minutes.
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@epsum
Thanks, very useful.
@ smallfry,
Good question. Reason is that Netjets in terms of fleet size compares well to major airlines and they are the biggest fractional operator. They also have a huge support team providing a very integrated operation. No doubt there are other Biz-jet companies that due the same, wether its Vistajet or others, but none to the size and apparent efficiency of Netjets. After all they manage over 700 jets. One of the largest airlines in the world, Delta, has a fleet size that big. They are a major player.
Also, all info on average passenger preflight procedures for long-haul commercial carriers is readably available. My study includes the most frequent long-haul routes for First Class seats, as well as All-business configured airplanes operating with various airlines.
When finding a potential market for Point-to-Point Supersonic, Hypersonic and Suborbital space planes, the Netjets traffic and First Class traffic are of interest as these are potential users of such higher speed services. However, speed inst everything as one has to figure in passenger terminal procedures as so on. This is were NJ and First Class terminal procedures of interest when it comes to time savings. Hope that answers your question.
@ redsnail,
Thank you for your notice. I do understand what you have written, and although I will assume what your saying is true, I am not legally bound by any said contract with NJ. If you feel that this breaches PPrune rules, please advise them. Also, plenty of FBO ground support know times and procedures as do people not working directly for NJ. I may also note, that private messages can help in getting feedback.
Thanks, very useful.
@ smallfry,
Good question. Reason is that Netjets in terms of fleet size compares well to major airlines and they are the biggest fractional operator. They also have a huge support team providing a very integrated operation. No doubt there are other Biz-jet companies that due the same, wether its Vistajet or others, but none to the size and apparent efficiency of Netjets. After all they manage over 700 jets. One of the largest airlines in the world, Delta, has a fleet size that big. They are a major player.
Also, all info on average passenger preflight procedures for long-haul commercial carriers is readably available. My study includes the most frequent long-haul routes for First Class seats, as well as All-business configured airplanes operating with various airlines.
When finding a potential market for Point-to-Point Supersonic, Hypersonic and Suborbital space planes, the Netjets traffic and First Class traffic are of interest as these are potential users of such higher speed services. However, speed inst everything as one has to figure in passenger terminal procedures as so on. This is were NJ and First Class terminal procedures of interest when it comes to time savings. Hope that answers your question.
@ redsnail,
Thank you for your notice. I do understand what you have written, and although I will assume what your saying is true, I am not legally bound by any said contract with NJ. If you feel that this breaches PPrune rules, please advise them. Also, plenty of FBO ground support know times and procedures as do people not working directly for NJ. I may also note, that private messages can help in getting feedback.
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This and Trans Atlantic crossings
You seem to be asking a couple of weird questions my friend, and its just a little strange !
Any Uni project would be much better if it had multiple organisations with which the student could compare data, but you just choose NJE ?
Why bother with pre boarding times when you state youre interested in researching super-sonic biz jet travel ? ( a study that has already been done, by the way !! )
Are we to return to the NJE bashing days ?
Oh, and my name is not Scroll Lock, i do not work for NJE, I don't know Redsnail and I have no recollection of ever visiting Lisbon ( or Luton )
Any Uni project would be much better if it had multiple organisations with which the student could compare data, but you just choose NJE ?
Why bother with pre boarding times when you state youre interested in researching super-sonic biz jet travel ? ( a study that has already been done, by the way !! )
Are we to return to the NJE bashing days ?
Oh, and my name is not Scroll Lock, i do not work for NJE, I don't know Redsnail and I have no recollection of ever visiting Lisbon ( or Luton )
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Am I not the only one that considers these questions strange and inappropriate???
We should not be discussing security or pre-departure procedures on an open forum.
If this guy is genuine then he should approach NJE directly for a formal response
I suggest this thread is closed.
We should not be discussing security or pre-departure procedures on an open forum.
If this guy is genuine then he should approach NJE directly for a formal response
I suggest this thread is closed.
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A question is a question and this is an open forum.... however what I can't understand is how you will reference your information? PPrune? All uni's Ive been to would just laugh if I wrote an internet forum as source of information.
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@Moonwalker: I was thinking the same thing. Just Imagine the in-text citations: "According to Moonwalker (2012), university professors may not give much credibility to anonymous on-line sources. Some even argue that asking these questions in public poses a significant security risk (The Boy, 2012)." 
The paper will be an interesting read, in any case.
The paper will be an interesting read, in any case.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
@Cpt Schmerzfrei Well at least the References would read "Netjets Passenger Preflight Procedures" PPRuNe, Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc, accessed XX April 2012.
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I stumbled on this thread by accident. I don't work for NetJets, I do know somebody who does but I certainly would not ask that person to divulge any, even remotely security-linked information. The information being requested is of the sort likely to attract the attention of the Security Services themselves. No employee worth their salt or who values their continuing employment would dream of divulging any such information. If you really want the information for a genuine purpose then I suggest you obtain it in the sensible, correct manner and write to the company.
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Security theatre isn't security
Apologies for butting in with a bit of a contrarian view, but I have to argue that if divulging security procedures in public makes them less effective, they aren't real security.
My first love/career was in IT security, and we would refer to a security practice that is ineffective once explained to the people who seek to exploit it as being "security theatre": it is a big showy piece of process that is intended to make people feel some security is going on, perhaps modifying their behaviour (in this case stopping terrorists or hijackers from believing they have a credible attack vector), but in essence would be ineffective once that attacker realises it's security theatre.
We're surrounded by security theatre on a daily basis. We actually even seek it sometimes (e.g. more police on streets even though there is no evidence that such a move decreases crime rates or improves detection rates in numerous studies over many years). However, it's dangerous because it prevents us finding genuinely secure and safe practice. I would posit that much of what is done in aviation is security theatre, but if I said that too loudly and pointed out all the attack vectors left by the existing processes, I would no doubt get a visit from Special Branch.
That said, I do worry if we're not spending too much time appearing to be safe rather than actually making flying safer.
For those interested in such matters, Bruce Schneier runs an excellent blog and email newsletter, in which he has pointed out flaws in TSA and airline security procedures as security theatre on numerous occasions.
If NJE - or indeed any operator, airline, airport or law enforcement agency - have security practices in place that they can not explain because they would then become ineffective they already are ineffective, and any attacker who is competent enough to plot a major terrorist action is going to be able to work out the "pain points" of that process they must overcome by travelling with that outfit perhaps just 2-3 times and observing closely.
Given there are numerous stories of TSA staff stealing passenger property (iPads are popular), it would seem that bribing security officials at an airport is viable and therefore would make a complete mockery of these processes anyway.
I used to see a lot of stupidity in IT security as adoption of Internet protocols were adopted, and that took the industry 10-15 years to overcome including half a dozen high-profile failures (one including a worm/virus written by the son of an NSA director), before we started to get it right. It cost time and money, but nobody died. The aviation industry needs to get this right because if they don't, people will die.
This thread has just highlighted what I already feared: aviation security is in such a poor state, we can't discuss it because it would become immediately apparent to everybody just how useless they are as procedures against a highly motivated attacker.
If you do work for an employer who has security procedures that can't be discussed, please go and have the discussion internally that you need to develop better procedures and the industry needs to get away from thinking that putting liquids in a separate bag for the security scan and occasionally scanning footwear is enough.
My first love/career was in IT security, and we would refer to a security practice that is ineffective once explained to the people who seek to exploit it as being "security theatre": it is a big showy piece of process that is intended to make people feel some security is going on, perhaps modifying their behaviour (in this case stopping terrorists or hijackers from believing they have a credible attack vector), but in essence would be ineffective once that attacker realises it's security theatre.
We're surrounded by security theatre on a daily basis. We actually even seek it sometimes (e.g. more police on streets even though there is no evidence that such a move decreases crime rates or improves detection rates in numerous studies over many years). However, it's dangerous because it prevents us finding genuinely secure and safe practice. I would posit that much of what is done in aviation is security theatre, but if I said that too loudly and pointed out all the attack vectors left by the existing processes, I would no doubt get a visit from Special Branch.
That said, I do worry if we're not spending too much time appearing to be safe rather than actually making flying safer.
For those interested in such matters, Bruce Schneier runs an excellent blog and email newsletter, in which he has pointed out flaws in TSA and airline security procedures as security theatre on numerous occasions.
If NJE - or indeed any operator, airline, airport or law enforcement agency - have security practices in place that they can not explain because they would then become ineffective they already are ineffective, and any attacker who is competent enough to plot a major terrorist action is going to be able to work out the "pain points" of that process they must overcome by travelling with that outfit perhaps just 2-3 times and observing closely.
Given there are numerous stories of TSA staff stealing passenger property (iPads are popular), it would seem that bribing security officials at an airport is viable and therefore would make a complete mockery of these processes anyway.
I used to see a lot of stupidity in IT security as adoption of Internet protocols were adopted, and that took the industry 10-15 years to overcome including half a dozen high-profile failures (one including a worm/virus written by the son of an NSA director), before we started to get it right. It cost time and money, but nobody died. The aviation industry needs to get this right because if they don't, people will die.
This thread has just highlighted what I already feared: aviation security is in such a poor state, we can't discuss it because it would become immediately apparent to everybody just how useless they are as procedures against a highly motivated attacker.
If you do work for an employer who has security procedures that can't be discussed, please go and have the discussion internally that you need to develop better procedures and the industry needs to get away from thinking that putting liquids in a separate bag for the security scan and occasionally scanning footwear is enough.
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Pretty common. Many work contracts have provisions that do not allow the employee to talk about specifics of any company procedure unless its blatantly illegal. In german there is a standing word for it even: "Verschwiegenheitsklausel".
@p7r true enough. Originally coming from the IT world myself that sounds very familiar. To be honest most of the current security procedures in avation are pretty much common knowledge. And sadly many of those procedures are purely window dressing, but don't tell that those hyperactive politicians who think they have shown everyone how hard they clamp down on terrorism when instead they just make travelling a nuisance.
@p7r true enough. Originally coming from the IT world myself that sounds very familiar. To be honest most of the current security procedures in avation are pretty much common knowledge. And sadly many of those procedures are purely window dressing, but don't tell that those hyperactive politicians who think they have shown everyone how hard they clamp down on terrorism when instead they just make travelling a nuisance.
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I will try and address the comments briefly as this seems to strike a cord with some of you and spiraled into some interesting discussion and of course speculation/rumours.
@Scroll Lock
"""Why bother with pre boarding times when you state youre interested in researching super-sonic biz jet travel ?
This study is not limited to supersonic biz jets. Its supersonic planes, hypersonic and suborbital point to point space planes using vehicles form the past, present and future (concepts).
Why bother with pre boarding times, good question. Because this plays into the overall journey time and if you can get to an airport next door and get on an airplane in 10 minutes, then that is a hefty time savings compared to a major airport, say LHR or choose your pick.
""(a study that has already been done, by the way !! )"""
Yeap, sure has, and I have a great deal of these studies. Great reads. I would remind you that a study is usually evolving and papers are written on subjects covered a millions times before...
""Are we to return to the NJE bashing days?""
I am not sure what you are eluding to (perhaps due to my age and general lack of knowledge in this field/biz jet forum), but you can fill me in if you would like.
Now, the study concerns Door-to-Door scenarios comparing Ground Transport times (to airport / aerospaceport), Terminal processing time (Passenger processing for security, border control, customs, baggage, check in etc...for airlines, netjets, vs hypersonic and spaceplane services) and then also Point-to-Point times (Block time / Flight time of vehicle i.e. a G550 vs 777 vs ZEHST vs LAPCAT A2 vs Suborbital PTP spaceplane concept).
This is all overlaid with different scenarios. What is interesting so far is that a major factor in the overall journey time is Ground transport and Terminal processing of passengers Preflight, postflight and during transfers.
@ the boy
""We should not be discussing security or pre-departure procedures on an open forum.""
What I want here is not the detailed procedure, I am looking for TIME estimates and understanding briefly what occurs prior to boarding their jets. If they need to swipe everyone with a metal detector and they have 10 pax and the pilots have to do it, then I figuire things can eventually take much longer then what is quoted. However, if we were discussing detailed procedures, then its a matter of opinion and your idea of security might be better conceptualized after reading "p7r" previous comment.
""If this guy is genuine then he should approach NJE directly for a formal response""
Have done so. Thanks for the tip :-), oh not a guy, a bit more to the other end.
""I suggest this thread is closed.""
For this suggestion to be effective I recommend you contact PPrune.
@ Moonwalker
It is also my understanding that this is an open forum. As per your legitimate question of referencing: I will not be using any info obtained in this forum. This forum is however a place to test my time estimates obtained from data (referenced and legit) against people who work with these matters. As an example, operators quote time to handle passengers, but these are the times in there sales broachers, and when I have called FBO;s, they indicate slightly longer times :-). I also want to know what the pilots think (thats here) and they are not easy to find. So this is an excellent place to get info fast pertaining to all aspects of flight. Calling NetJets, Delta, Reaction Engines, EADS, IATA, and the National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) works well, however, they are slow (months) to get back if they get back at all.
PPruners have provided excellent pointers to where to look for information. The most helpful pertaining to business jets has been introduced to me by several, that is the National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) and data sets from IATA.
@ p7r
Thanks, a most interesting insight and one I hope people take the time reading on this forum.
@ redsnail
Again, this dosent apply to me, as I am not bound by such media policy. I do however get the sense that you are writing more so to remind others what they cant and can post. I respect that you remind them as I no doubt understand that they are bound by contracts. However, if they wish to break their contract and divulge information, they have the freedom and right to do so, although it may result in termination of their contracts. Thanks for that updates on the "media policy", I do wish to make a note again, I am interested in estimated times, not the detail of the procedures.
@ Denti
Interesting point, also since you are most likely "doing union negotiations", a very happy 1st of May to you :-)
.
Cheers. everyone and thanks for your input.
@Scroll Lock
"""Why bother with pre boarding times when you state youre interested in researching super-sonic biz jet travel ?
This study is not limited to supersonic biz jets. Its supersonic planes, hypersonic and suborbital point to point space planes using vehicles form the past, present and future (concepts).
Why bother with pre boarding times, good question. Because this plays into the overall journey time and if you can get to an airport next door and get on an airplane in 10 minutes, then that is a hefty time savings compared to a major airport, say LHR or choose your pick.
""(a study that has already been done, by the way !! )"""
Yeap, sure has, and I have a great deal of these studies. Great reads. I would remind you that a study is usually evolving and papers are written on subjects covered a millions times before...
""Are we to return to the NJE bashing days?""
I am not sure what you are eluding to (perhaps due to my age and general lack of knowledge in this field/biz jet forum), but you can fill me in if you would like.
Now, the study concerns Door-to-Door scenarios comparing Ground Transport times (to airport / aerospaceport), Terminal processing time (Passenger processing for security, border control, customs, baggage, check in etc...for airlines, netjets, vs hypersonic and spaceplane services) and then also Point-to-Point times (Block time / Flight time of vehicle i.e. a G550 vs 777 vs ZEHST vs LAPCAT A2 vs Suborbital PTP spaceplane concept).
This is all overlaid with different scenarios. What is interesting so far is that a major factor in the overall journey time is Ground transport and Terminal processing of passengers Preflight, postflight and during transfers.
@ the boy
""We should not be discussing security or pre-departure procedures on an open forum.""
What I want here is not the detailed procedure, I am looking for TIME estimates and understanding briefly what occurs prior to boarding their jets. If they need to swipe everyone with a metal detector and they have 10 pax and the pilots have to do it, then I figuire things can eventually take much longer then what is quoted. However, if we were discussing detailed procedures, then its a matter of opinion and your idea of security might be better conceptualized after reading "p7r" previous comment.
""If this guy is genuine then he should approach NJE directly for a formal response""
Have done so. Thanks for the tip :-), oh not a guy, a bit more to the other end.
""I suggest this thread is closed.""
For this suggestion to be effective I recommend you contact PPrune.
@ Moonwalker
It is also my understanding that this is an open forum. As per your legitimate question of referencing: I will not be using any info obtained in this forum. This forum is however a place to test my time estimates obtained from data (referenced and legit) against people who work with these matters. As an example, operators quote time to handle passengers, but these are the times in there sales broachers, and when I have called FBO;s, they indicate slightly longer times :-). I also want to know what the pilots think (thats here) and they are not easy to find. So this is an excellent place to get info fast pertaining to all aspects of flight. Calling NetJets, Delta, Reaction Engines, EADS, IATA, and the National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) works well, however, they are slow (months) to get back if they get back at all.
PPruners have provided excellent pointers to where to look for information. The most helpful pertaining to business jets has been introduced to me by several, that is the National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) and data sets from IATA.
@ p7r
Thanks, a most interesting insight and one I hope people take the time reading on this forum.
@ redsnail
Again, this dosent apply to me, as I am not bound by such media policy. I do however get the sense that you are writing more so to remind others what they cant and can post. I respect that you remind them as I no doubt understand that they are bound by contracts. However, if they wish to break their contract and divulge information, they have the freedom and right to do so, although it may result in termination of their contracts. Thanks for that updates on the "media policy", I do wish to make a note again, I am interested in estimated times, not the detail of the procedures.
@ Denti
Interesting point, also since you are most likely "doing union negotiations", a very happy 1st of May to you :-)
.
Cheers. everyone and thanks for your input.
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I guess the point redsnail was refering to was not that you might be bound by whatever NJE imposes on its employees, rather the other way round that she and other NJE pilots or employees might not be free to speak about their workplace on the internet.
Thanks by the way, but pilot unions are usually not those that care very much about may 1st
Just enjoying a very sunny OFF day (totally unrelated to the date) today.
Thanks by the way, but pilot unions are usually not those that care very much about may 1st
Just enjoying a very sunny OFF day (totally unrelated to the date) today.
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NJE employees are not "allowed" to talk about their employer?????!!!!
Urm....How old are you? Ten?
NJE do not own you and this forum is anon anyway.
I don't think I have ever heard anything so disappointing, pathetic and sad from a pilot!
Urm....How old are you? Ten?
NJE do not own you and this forum is anon anyway.
I don't think I have ever heard anything so disappointing, pathetic and sad from a pilot!
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NJE do not own you and this forum is anon anyway.
As their lawyers have obviously set a precedent in the USA by getting internet brands to release user names, it would be extremely easy for any employer with sufficient funds to follow suit...Mutt
I don't think I have ever heard anything so disappointing, pathetic and sad from a pilot!
