The switch between AIRLINE job and BIZ jet job
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That it would be harder work, when your actually at work.
There is generally more time off (but many, many standby days)
Greater responsibilities (Customer Service, Aircraft cleanliness, Operational roles).
Some interesting and random destinations with longer layovers, but more waiting around and uncertainty.
More highly regarded as a professional (depends on the client), but I would imagine more so than flying a load of drunk customers down to the Canary's. - "More than just a number" as Sir Korsky mentioned.
All in all, a lot more face time with the clients, and a lot more of a 'personal experience'.
I reckon that you would also have to be an extremely flexible / adaptable character, to put up with a variable roster (unless you join a large operator e.g. NetJets).
Thanks again for everyone's comments. Hope this thread is helpful for those thinking of making the switch. It is imperative to think twice before undertaking such a massive career change!!
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my 50 cents
It´s just dissapointing to see GA Companies employing more and more "Old-time-Airliners",which destroys the movement System within GA.
Aft 30 years Air France, I guess Pension is very good and should be used to play some holes on the Course .
But more and more you see these Gents on Ga Aircraft basically offer their duties for free ,just to stay Active in a Cockpit .
We therefore get upgrade times which can reach Airline Format in the far future ,not very tempting .
I also have no respect for anyone who was willing to pay a 737 rating with our friends in Ireland and now think they can flood the Ga Market .
May all of you here think how it was in the past ,we talked serious "coins" in GA ,now its somehow a "typerated only " market like in the Airlines ,movement stopped..!
It will get worse and we need to stick together to protect what we achieved or was achieved by our "GA-Old-Timers".
its ...THE FISCHMEISTER !!
Aft 30 years Air France, I guess Pension is very good and should be used to play some holes on the Course .
But more and more you see these Gents on Ga Aircraft basically offer their duties for free ,just to stay Active in a Cockpit .
We therefore get upgrade times which can reach Airline Format in the far future ,not very tempting .
I also have no respect for anyone who was willing to pay a 737 rating with our friends in Ireland and now think they can flood the Ga Market .
May all of you here think how it was in the past ,we talked serious "coins" in GA ,now its somehow a "typerated only " market like in the Airlines ,movement stopped..!
It will get worse and we need to stick together to protect what we achieved or was achieved by our "GA-Old-Timers".
its ...THE FISCHMEISTER !!
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Ok, a little truth, rather then opinion -
- Airline guys coming out of commuters, move to corporate for the money.
- Airline guys don't move out of the majors to take a pay cut in corporate.
- Airlines are hiring guys that get along in a homogeneous group think union environment where no one makes a decisions and they will be supervised and managed their whole lives.
- Corporate guys TEND to get to a place where they run their own departments and pretty much couldn't even conceive of working for chief pilots, with a book of SOPS under the seat.
- Airline guys and corporate guys can revel in a strict laid out schedule months in advance...but a few of us, don't want things mapped out. Call me a few days in advance, I can plan a trip, figure out how to do it. Airline guys can hate this, as many don't really want to be pilots, or planners, they just want a seat in a plane.
--------------------
It shakes out for me that I can't stand large organizations..I've never been managed...it's been 'here's the keys' and I have a plane ready when they want to go fly...other guys can really hate this.
Last - An airline guy that flies 80 hours a month that owns a C172 to go flying on his days off is telling of a guy that never touches the controls during his tenure as a 'pilot'. People asked me if I owned a plane and I thought they were nuts...'what do you think I do all day for a living?'
- but that of course might have something to do with hand flying approaches for 'fun', doing all the flying and landings, and all the other stuff, so it's pretty pointless to have a little plane, when I get it out of my system at the job.
- Airline guys coming out of commuters, move to corporate for the money.
- Airline guys don't move out of the majors to take a pay cut in corporate.
- Airlines are hiring guys that get along in a homogeneous group think union environment where no one makes a decisions and they will be supervised and managed their whole lives.
- Corporate guys TEND to get to a place where they run their own departments and pretty much couldn't even conceive of working for chief pilots, with a book of SOPS under the seat.
- Airline guys and corporate guys can revel in a strict laid out schedule months in advance...but a few of us, don't want things mapped out. Call me a few days in advance, I can plan a trip, figure out how to do it. Airline guys can hate this, as many don't really want to be pilots, or planners, they just want a seat in a plane.
--------------------
It shakes out for me that I can't stand large organizations..I've never been managed...it's been 'here's the keys' and I have a plane ready when they want to go fly...other guys can really hate this.
Last - An airline guy that flies 80 hours a month that owns a C172 to go flying on his days off is telling of a guy that never touches the controls during his tenure as a 'pilot'. People asked me if I owned a plane and I thought they were nuts...'what do you think I do all day for a living?'
- but that of course might have something to do with hand flying approaches for 'fun', doing all the flying and landings, and all the other stuff, so it's pretty pointless to have a little plane, when I get it out of my system at the job.
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Der_Fischmeister
As long as we (most of us) live in a free and democratic society we can all make our own decision when or not to retire providing that decision is not made for us by the AME. These days all folks are being encouraged to work longer for obvious reasons and for me, not being a spring chicken anymore, thats just fine. I will not be jumping into my slippers and rocking chair just to vacate a position for a younger person, and I know many others just like me. So young man, stop crying in your beer and just get on with it, have a little respect for your elders and remember that we all have the right to go to work. That right does not go away just because one decided to be a professional pilot. If you are any good you will have a fine career, or.............. And if you do have a fine career how eager will YOU be to give it up just to make space for a younger person?
As for airline pilots coming to bizjets, who decided that they are not allowed to do that?
As for airline pilots coming to bizjets, who decided that they are not allowed to do that?
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Well NuName, whilst I would not back everything the fischmeister wrote, there is one fact that could (would I care about it) make my blood boil: you can´t get into airlines above age 40 give or take a little. Now, how fair is this?
Then SOME of said Gentlemen use their pension to undercut going rates for those who have to live of it. In Germany that was/is the fashion with ex Luftwaffe guys, the socalled BO41s that get a good pension and then fly for less than the going rates (not everyone is doing that, but enough to get noted). And the operators happily do employ them, cause they are cheap.
The State also pays (at least it used to do it) the conversion to civil licence.
Now how fair is this compared to the guys who spent like 70.000€ out of their own pocket to get a licence...
I´m old enough to know that life isn´t fair. Still I can bitch about it.
BTW, when I started to fly the pension age was 65. Now it is 67 and would I fly commercially, I could not fly up to 67. For the time being I can do it in coorperate, which in turn limits the potential jobs for me big time. Now, how democratic and free is that then ?
Then SOME of said Gentlemen use their pension to undercut going rates for those who have to live of it. In Germany that was/is the fashion with ex Luftwaffe guys, the socalled BO41s that get a good pension and then fly for less than the going rates (not everyone is doing that, but enough to get noted). And the operators happily do employ them, cause they are cheap.
The State also pays (at least it used to do it) the conversion to civil licence.
Now how fair is this compared to the guys who spent like 70.000€ out of their own pocket to get a licence...
I´m old enough to know that life isn´t fair. Still I can bitch about it.
BTW, when I started to fly the pension age was 65. Now it is 67 and would I fly commercially, I could not fly up to 67. For the time being I can do it in coorperate, which in turn limits the potential jobs for me big time. Now, how democratic and free is that then ?
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Dude
I think that everything you say is fair comment, but it is what it is, people will always maximize their options its human nature. I worked for years to pay my way through flight school and bum around for some kind of start, at that time I knew a couple of chaps that came from incredibly wealthy families that paid for them both to go all the way to ATPL with Gulfstream type ratings, what's fair in this life? All I meant before is, now that I spent half my life earning the money to get to be a professional pilot I'm not quiting now because some younger guy wants my job. Its is a tough job market out there and even tougher when you get to my age. Everyday I lose out to ex airline guy's, what can you do? Bugger all I say.
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nuname
Not crying at all ,and my beer still tastes fantastic .
His Dudeness exactly pointed out my Problem.
Ex -Mil with Pension willing to pay for Ratings ,Airliner Pilots with huge Pensions also willing to pay for their "right " to sit left in GA.
I still dont agree with this ,cause basically everything goes in opposite way instead of how it should be .
If Im good or not ,well im not bad I guess but far away from disrespecting ANYONE!
May you are Senior left ,may right ..may just a wannabe, I dont know you and so neither you now me and how I deal with this .
Maybe one day you will be replaced by a 61 year old which basically wants to fly for free "just not to lay back in his chair at home ".
Of course you will accept that and be polite and make way cause they "deserve" it .Or are you ?
I still dont like this behaviour nor I like 19 year old spoiled Guys buying themselves a Position on an Aircraft ,may it be Airline or GA.
Watch it ,Air France cutting down ...Air Berlin ..etc etc . how do they cut down normally ?well offering the ones close to Pension a huge amount of money and off they go ,now were back to Problem what I mentioned before .
anyways not argueing here, but the future will be, maybe a typical Delta Crew Transatlantic (age wise )
I HOPE NOT !
Cheers
Merry XMAS
its ..THE FISCHMEISTER !!!
His Dudeness exactly pointed out my Problem.
Ex -Mil with Pension willing to pay for Ratings ,Airliner Pilots with huge Pensions also willing to pay for their "right " to sit left in GA.
I still dont agree with this ,cause basically everything goes in opposite way instead of how it should be .
If Im good or not ,well im not bad I guess but far away from disrespecting ANYONE!
May you are Senior left ,may right ..may just a wannabe, I dont know you and so neither you now me and how I deal with this .
Maybe one day you will be replaced by a 61 year old which basically wants to fly for free "just not to lay back in his chair at home ".
Of course you will accept that and be polite and make way cause they "deserve" it .Or are you ?
I still dont like this behaviour nor I like 19 year old spoiled Guys buying themselves a Position on an Aircraft ,may it be Airline or GA.
Watch it ,Air France cutting down ...Air Berlin ..etc etc . how do they cut down normally ?well offering the ones close to Pension a huge amount of money and off they go ,now were back to Problem what I mentioned before .
anyways not argueing here, but the future will be, maybe a typical Delta Crew Transatlantic (age wise )
I HOPE NOT !
Cheers
Merry XMAS
its ..THE FISCHMEISTER !!!
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Der_Fischmeister
Merry Xmas to you too and all the best for the new year.
Its not that I don't understand what your saying its just unrealistic to expect that a guy who has never met you will refuse a flying position so as not to do you out of a job. This will always be the case so, forget about it, stop encouraging ulcers and stress and enjoy what you get, you will feel better for it.
Its not that I don't understand what your saying its just unrealistic to expect that a guy who has never met you will refuse a flying position so as not to do you out of a job. This will always be the case so, forget about it, stop encouraging ulcers and stress and enjoy what you get, you will feel better for it.
Person Of Interest
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I did VIP 727 for just under 6 yrs, and loved every minute of it...
Based in Riyadh, the most time I ever spent there in any given year was 32 days...
Loads of time off, however, as has been stated, not really "off"...I carried 2 phones, 1 for me that I could turn off, and 1 for "him"...Except for the 6 week "C" check every year (6 weeks) I was on the road constantly...One year I spent 283 nights in a hotel somewhere in the world...However, we would always have at least 24 hour notice of a flight...my principle's people understood they couldn't order up a trip from say, LAX to Beruit, with a drop-off in Paris on short notice...
I had an extensive airline background, and when the kids were born I went back to the airlines, but I truly loved VIP...
Good Luck...
Based in Riyadh, the most time I ever spent there in any given year was 32 days...
Loads of time off, however, as has been stated, not really "off"...I carried 2 phones, 1 for me that I could turn off, and 1 for "him"...Except for the 6 week "C" check every year (6 weeks) I was on the road constantly...One year I spent 283 nights in a hotel somewhere in the world...However, we would always have at least 24 hour notice of a flight...my principle's people understood they couldn't order up a trip from say, LAX to Beruit, with a drop-off in Paris on short notice...
I had an extensive airline background, and when the kids were born I went back to the airlines, but I truly loved VIP...
Good Luck...
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I started in executive an went to the airlines ( no lo-co). Although I never regreted the change, I never gave up on executive for a simple reason: I love executive flying! I will not claim one is better than the other, both have their advantages and disadvantages. The most important thing to remember is that they are very different. I cannot wear my airline hat when I am flying exec and vice versa.
If you don't stick to the procedures in the airlines, somebody will have your balls for breakfast, nobody wants your creativity! If you are not creative and flexible in executive then a: you are going nowhere and b: somebody will have your balls for breakfast.
The bottom line is I love to go to work, get in and go, and be done when I land (airline). BUT I also love being the "CHIEFCOOKBOTTLEWASHER" in executive flying!
If you don't stick to the procedures in the airlines, somebody will have your balls for breakfast, nobody wants your creativity! If you are not creative and flexible in executive then a: you are going nowhere and b: somebody will have your balls for breakfast.
The bottom line is I love to go to work, get in and go, and be done when I land (airline). BUT I also love being the "CHIEFCOOKBOTTLEWASHER" in executive flying!
Last edited by 737drvr; 25th Dec 2011 at 00:04.
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Nothing's worse than having ex-airline or ex-military retirees show up on property. They generally have the 'my way' mentality and not fun to be around. If you fellas are bored, go take up a hobby, learn ceramics, etc. Don't come and dilute my earnings/upgrades. You haven't earned it.
We had an ex-mil turboprop retiree show up and I was tasked with his company and flying orientation. His attitude was poor (know-it-all, until asked a specific question), refused to wear FO stripes, and wasn't a good stick at all. Management loved his low-ball wage though. He only lasted a few months, as he refused several trips because the customer had the odd idea of departing before 10 a.m., which didn't fit with his retiree schedule.
Whoever thinks GA is paid below airline had better think again. For smaller corp jets it may be so, but the mid-size and larger have great pay and bennies.
We had an ex-mil turboprop retiree show up and I was tasked with his company and flying orientation. His attitude was poor (know-it-all, until asked a specific question), refused to wear FO stripes, and wasn't a good stick at all. Management loved his low-ball wage though. He only lasted a few months, as he refused several trips because the customer had the odd idea of departing before 10 a.m., which didn't fit with his retiree schedule.
Whoever thinks GA is paid below airline had better think again. For smaller corp jets it may be so, but the mid-size and larger have great pay and bennies.
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It's becoming a well known fact that Military and airlines are culling for robots that take orders, specifically culling out independent thinkers.
More then a few biz jet owners are getting wise to this when they hire some guy who says he flew all the heavy stuff but can't plan a trip, the plane stays down for 3 months, or just can't 'get it done' on the fly.
The last guy I had to deal with was an ex Eastern Capt. that practically brought down an Fortune 100 flight dept, more types then god, but he was doing so much cowboy flying, that his FO quit, the FAA was called in, and I was brought in as a witness to talk about simple crap like weight and balance, performance and planning. Everyone was scratching their heads at what this guys was doing. I mean once he flamed out on the roll out, the fuel was so low, but he would never fly about FL350 because he thought any depressurization above that alt was instant death. He had so many holes in his aviation knowledge it was scary, and he had an L1011 type, he was a check airman back in the day, on and on.
He was the perfect example of a guy at the right place, the right time, greasing the right wheels but literally could barely tie his shoes.
More then a few biz jet owners are getting wise to this when they hire some guy who says he flew all the heavy stuff but can't plan a trip, the plane stays down for 3 months, or just can't 'get it done' on the fly.
The last guy I had to deal with was an ex Eastern Capt. that practically brought down an Fortune 100 flight dept, more types then god, but he was doing so much cowboy flying, that his FO quit, the FAA was called in, and I was brought in as a witness to talk about simple crap like weight and balance, performance and planning. Everyone was scratching their heads at what this guys was doing. I mean once he flamed out on the roll out, the fuel was so low, but he would never fly about FL350 because he thought any depressurization above that alt was instant death. He had so many holes in his aviation knowledge it was scary, and he had an L1011 type, he was a check airman back in the day, on and on.
He was the perfect example of a guy at the right place, the right time, greasing the right wheels but literally could barely tie his shoes.
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"It's becoming a well known fact that Military and airlines are culling for robots that take orders, specifically culling out independent thinkers."
"You haven't earned it."
You guys make me laugh my arse off.
"You haven't earned it."
You guys make me laugh my arse off.
It's becoming a well known fact that Military and airlines are culling for robots that take orders, specifically culling out independent thinkers.
The difference between the two is that in the military everybody dresses the same and thinks differently and it is the opposite in civilian world. There are more independent thinkers in some squadrons than in whole corporations.
GF
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The difference between the two is that in the military everybody dresses the same and thinks differently and it is the opposite in civilian world. There are more independent thinkers in some squadrons than in whole corporations.
Thanks for this brilliant laugh!
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Yes, and every little boy grows up looking at the sky and dreaming about flying as the taxi driver of some rich bloke.
The lucky ones with skill and panache succeed, and the inadequate losers have to join the military and suffer the cheap, taught to the exam training and endless, no variety, same every day magenta line following. They look up at the sky and curse those fortunate few who live the dream. They end up bitter and twisted; inadequacy and feelings of lack of fullfilment cause them to cast aspersions at the elite "corporate" pilots, questioning whether they have " earned it".
er....no..wait...that's not right, is it...
The lucky ones with skill and panache succeed, and the inadequate losers have to join the military and suffer the cheap, taught to the exam training and endless, no variety, same every day magenta line following. They look up at the sky and curse those fortunate few who live the dream. They end up bitter and twisted; inadequacy and feelings of lack of fullfilment cause them to cast aspersions at the elite "corporate" pilots, questioning whether they have " earned it".
er....no..wait...that's not right, is it...