Billionaires and Occupy Wall St.
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Billionaires and Occupy Wall St.
I am seriously starting to question the people I fly. Revolutions bring change and I think some of the clients I have show little respect to the average person. I only fly a C550 but I do worry that if I move to a Challenger that these clients will be unbearable. They are seemingly occupied with SELF. We all know the media portraits of jolly generous Buffet but surely we need better working conditions and be gone with these ridiculous Freelance contracts that leave you wondering if you are ever going to afford to buy a house,pay for your children or even keep current. I have had my licence for 6 years I previously worked in the HK a booming capitalist colony, that cash cow paid for my training. Since then I have flown relief food in South Sudan a heart wrenching job and Corporate Aviation in Europe. In the good old days the billionaires expected to pay their workers why now do they try and squeeze every dime. Attitudes need to change or long live the revolution. You cannot afford a plane if you can't afford to crew it.
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C550, Challenger or GLEX... there are the unbearable and the good accounts. Just like the "real" world. It's your job to sort through it all and choose wisely.
Of course there's an element of luck involved but most of our success comes from our own due diligence.
Best of luck to you.
Of course there's an element of luck involved but most of our success comes from our own due diligence.
Best of luck to you.
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May I intrude for a moment? I'm certainly not a billionaire, nor do I have any particular desire to become one. My financial situation is such that ownership and operation of a G550 is not a significant expense in the general scheme of things.
I employ three pilots full time, with salaries about 18% higher than the NBAA maximum reported salaries for the G550. They have excellent benefits, and I fervently hope that I am treating them well. I both like and admire them. They are decent, honorable men, with extraordinary skills as aviators.
Our aircraft is used about 500 horus per year for family travel (our family is spread all over the place).
I've said most of this before. There are family owners out there who treat their employees like dirt. There are others who believe, as I do, that pilots are highly skilled professionals who should be treated with respect, dignity and even kindness.
I hope that you find employment with some of the good guys, not the louts.
Before we hired our third pilot, we used contractors when one of our pilots needed a day off/got sick/took vacation. I do not know what the proper pay scale for a contractor on the G550 is; we paid (I think) around $1400/day plus expenses.
Two of the four that we used are not welcome in our aircraft EVER again. One showed up for a return flight from Munich 4 hours late, laughing because he "overslept in a brothel". The other fell asleep in the lavatory and couldn't be awakened for about 3 hours.
In the end we hired a third pilot, not from among the contractors we'd used, but from among a small group of pilots known and respected by our Captain.
I guess what I am driving at is that there are bad apples on both sides of the fence. Owners who give us all a bad name, and pilots who have no business associating with civilized people.
Good luck with your career. I truly hope things get better.
I employ three pilots full time, with salaries about 18% higher than the NBAA maximum reported salaries for the G550. They have excellent benefits, and I fervently hope that I am treating them well. I both like and admire them. They are decent, honorable men, with extraordinary skills as aviators.
Our aircraft is used about 500 horus per year for family travel (our family is spread all over the place).
I've said most of this before. There are family owners out there who treat their employees like dirt. There are others who believe, as I do, that pilots are highly skilled professionals who should be treated with respect, dignity and even kindness.
I hope that you find employment with some of the good guys, not the louts.
Before we hired our third pilot, we used contractors when one of our pilots needed a day off/got sick/took vacation. I do not know what the proper pay scale for a contractor on the G550 is; we paid (I think) around $1400/day plus expenses.
Two of the four that we used are not welcome in our aircraft EVER again. One showed up for a return flight from Munich 4 hours late, laughing because he "overslept in a brothel". The other fell asleep in the lavatory and couldn't be awakened for about 3 hours.
In the end we hired a third pilot, not from among the contractors we'd used, but from among a small group of pilots known and respected by our Captain.
I guess what I am driving at is that there are bad apples on both sides of the fence. Owners who give us all a bad name, and pilots who have no business associating with civilized people.
Good luck with your career. I truly hope things get better.
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Marcus550 is right. There are some great owners to work for out there. I've been working for one for the past 8 years on a GLEX. ..and before that...and before that. My situation sounds much like Marcus550's guys.
Perhaps not the norm but these employers exist despite what you hear and I must say in my 20+ year long career I have not yet had the displeasure of working for an unreasonable one (knock wood).
Lucky? Perhaps. I believe good spirit and good attitude brings good luck. That said, I'm optimistic there are many more positions like this out there....for the right guy.
The trick is to be that guy. If you are, the right job will find YOU.
Perhaps not the norm but these employers exist despite what you hear and I must say in my 20+ year long career I have not yet had the displeasure of working for an unreasonable one (knock wood).
Lucky? Perhaps. I believe good spirit and good attitude brings good luck. That said, I'm optimistic there are many more positions like this out there....for the right guy.
The trick is to be that guy. If you are, the right job will find YOU.
Last edited by ksjc; 21st Oct 2011 at 01:05.
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The most difficult, uncomfortable part of purchasing the Gulfstream was the process of selecting our pilots. Without going into gory detail, I can tell you that a number of otherwise well qualified pilots did NOT get the jobs because of abominable interviewing skills. So to that end, I'll offer a bit of assistance.
First, and foremost LISTENto the interviewer. If you persist in answering questions he's not asking he won't be impressed. One example comes readily to mind:
Q. Mr. Smith, this is a very informal interview, I would like to get to know you as a person. So please relax, may I get you a cup of coffee?
Mr. Smith, who is sitting rigidly in the front one third of the chair, feet flat upon the floor, and hands upon his knees, replies:
A. I received my type rating in Savannah at Flight Safety two years ago, sir.
Granted this may be an odd approach to an interview. Our Captain had selected a couple of people for me to talk to. I totally defer to his judgment as to skills, experience and airmanship. I do want to know the people we're going to hire, as I want to hire people who will be comfortable with our family and with whom our family will be comfortable. I know that the interview process can be stressful for a pilot, and private owners often do the two tiered interview process (or three tiered) where ultimately the aircraft owner meets a few candidates acceptable to his pilot(s) and helps to decide among them.
If, in the interview process, an interviewer tells you that they'd like to get to know you as a person, they probably aren't either propositioning you, or interested in your aviation background as that will already have been assessed.
Second, suppose that your interviewer asks you something, that under U.S. law he isn't supposed to. You have several ways to respond, and you should consider why you're being asked this, and what the likely effect on your quest for employment might be.
Legally, I cannot ask you questions about your family, but I most certainly will, prefacing them with an explanation that I cannot properly ask them, and that you're free to decline to answer them. Why would I want to ask you about your family? My grandchildren (who are quite young) are frequent passengers on my aircraft. I would much rather hire a superb aviation who is married, has children, and likes kids, than a superb aviator who cannot stand children. So you're free to decline to answer and I won't press it, but at the end of the day, I have to ask myself...do I know enough about this guy's character to want to hire him.
Thirdly, do NOT bring up politics during the course of an interview. I've seen this happen startlingly often. And don't assume because the aircraft owner is wealthy, that he is therefore conservative, Republican or a tea partier. Oddly enough, most of my neighbors (who are reasonably well off) are actually liberal democrats. So... you just don't know. You may espouse your admiration for Rick Perry and end the interview right there. Or for Barack Obama and end the interview right there.
Fourth, do NOT bring up the subject of religion during an interview. If the interviewer asks, you should tell him that you don't choose to answer. But if you bring it up you become fair game. No matter how convinced you are of the rectitude, correctness and glory of your faith, the interviewer may be of a different persuasion (or he may think that your brand of religion is good for a belly laugh). You simply cannot know.
I had an individual who had been flying a G450 for a televangelist for a couple of years tell me that he'd be a better choice for the job than the other applicants because "God was his copilot". Since we were, at the time, looking for a copilot that seemed a bit odd. My copilot doesn't have a copilot of his own, and I like it that way.
I will also guarantee you that owners of family jets, if you happen to get interviewed, will ask you some truly odd questions. Talking with friends (an LR60 owner and a C680 owner) I have complied a list of things they've asked potential employees. When I have a bit more time, I'll share these with you.
First, and foremost LISTENto the interviewer. If you persist in answering questions he's not asking he won't be impressed. One example comes readily to mind:
Q. Mr. Smith, this is a very informal interview, I would like to get to know you as a person. So please relax, may I get you a cup of coffee?
Mr. Smith, who is sitting rigidly in the front one third of the chair, feet flat upon the floor, and hands upon his knees, replies:
A. I received my type rating in Savannah at Flight Safety two years ago, sir.
Granted this may be an odd approach to an interview. Our Captain had selected a couple of people for me to talk to. I totally defer to his judgment as to skills, experience and airmanship. I do want to know the people we're going to hire, as I want to hire people who will be comfortable with our family and with whom our family will be comfortable. I know that the interview process can be stressful for a pilot, and private owners often do the two tiered interview process (or three tiered) where ultimately the aircraft owner meets a few candidates acceptable to his pilot(s) and helps to decide among them.
If, in the interview process, an interviewer tells you that they'd like to get to know you as a person, they probably aren't either propositioning you, or interested in your aviation background as that will already have been assessed.
Second, suppose that your interviewer asks you something, that under U.S. law he isn't supposed to. You have several ways to respond, and you should consider why you're being asked this, and what the likely effect on your quest for employment might be.
Legally, I cannot ask you questions about your family, but I most certainly will, prefacing them with an explanation that I cannot properly ask them, and that you're free to decline to answer them. Why would I want to ask you about your family? My grandchildren (who are quite young) are frequent passengers on my aircraft. I would much rather hire a superb aviation who is married, has children, and likes kids, than a superb aviator who cannot stand children. So you're free to decline to answer and I won't press it, but at the end of the day, I have to ask myself...do I know enough about this guy's character to want to hire him.
Thirdly, do NOT bring up politics during the course of an interview. I've seen this happen startlingly often. And don't assume because the aircraft owner is wealthy, that he is therefore conservative, Republican or a tea partier. Oddly enough, most of my neighbors (who are reasonably well off) are actually liberal democrats. So... you just don't know. You may espouse your admiration for Rick Perry and end the interview right there. Or for Barack Obama and end the interview right there.
Fourth, do NOT bring up the subject of religion during an interview. If the interviewer asks, you should tell him that you don't choose to answer. But if you bring it up you become fair game. No matter how convinced you are of the rectitude, correctness and glory of your faith, the interviewer may be of a different persuasion (or he may think that your brand of religion is good for a belly laugh). You simply cannot know.
I had an individual who had been flying a G450 for a televangelist for a couple of years tell me that he'd be a better choice for the job than the other applicants because "God was his copilot". Since we were, at the time, looking for a copilot that seemed a bit odd. My copilot doesn't have a copilot of his own, and I like it that way.
I will also guarantee you that owners of family jets, if you happen to get interviewed, will ask you some truly odd questions. Talking with friends (an LR60 owner and a C680 owner) I have complied a list of things they've asked potential employees. When I have a bit more time, I'll share these with you.
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Marcus 550:
3 points: what you say about bad pilots is a bit weird, you give advices that are not going to help much, and you are off topic.
Let's see those 3 points:
BAD PILOTS
I am not sure that somebody who spent the night in a brothel will advertize it to you or anybody else at work, especially if he is 4 hours late. Being 4 hours late, in addition, doesn't add up, it's just impossible, unless the pilot lives 4 hours from the airport when you call him to know where he is.
The other one slept in the lavatory, and couldn't be awaken for 3 hours? It's called coma. I have no idea what you are talking about on that one. And which lavoratory? The airplane's one? It's just no realistic. If I uncounter this problem, I would call an ambulance instead of advertizing in on pprune.
It was the first point.
Now let's have a look at your advices:
POLITICS
RELIGION
Do you honestly beleive that there is one pilot among the ones who just read you that was about to speak about islam, god and tea party to his next coming interview and got saved by your advice? It takes much more than that to find a job, beleive me.
It looks that you are a kind of perfect employer reading your post, and you beleive many pilot are dumb.
It was the 2 point.
Finaly the last point, you are OFF TOPIC, it's not about the interview skills and having children is a must to work for you, it's about this subject, read it again, understand it, and if you have something to say about it, it would be interesting coming from an owner viewpoint:
3 points: what you say about bad pilots is a bit weird, you give advices that are not going to help much, and you are off topic.
Let's see those 3 points:
BAD PILOTS
Two of the four that we used are not welcome in our aircraft EVER again. One showed up for a return flight from Munich 4 hours late, laughing because he "overslept in a brothel". The other fell asleep in the lavatory and couldn't be awakened for about 3 hours.
The other one slept in the lavatory, and couldn't be awaken for 3 hours? It's called coma. I have no idea what you are talking about on that one. And which lavoratory? The airplane's one? It's just no realistic. If I uncounter this problem, I would call an ambulance instead of advertizing in on pprune.
It was the first point.
Now let's have a look at your advices:
POLITICS
Thirdly, do NOT bring up politics during the course of an interview. I've seen this happen startlingly often. And don't assume because the aircraft owner is wealthy, that he is therefore conservative, Republican or a tea partier. Oddly enough, most of my neighbors (who are reasonably well off) are actually liberal democrats. So... you just don't know. You may espouse your admiration for Rick Perry and end the interview right there. Or for Barack Obama and end the interview right there.
Fourth, do NOT bring up the subject of religion during an interview. If the interviewer asks, you should tell him that you don't choose to answer. But if you bring it up you become fair game. No matter how convinced you are of the rectitude, correctness and glory of your faith, the interviewer may be of a different persuasion (or he may think that your brand of religion is good for a belly laugh). You simply cannot know.
It looks that you are a kind of perfect employer reading your post, and you beleive many pilot are dumb.
It was the 2 point.
Finaly the last point, you are OFF TOPIC, it's not about the interview skills and having children is a must to work for you, it's about this subject, read it again, understand it, and if you have something to say about it, it would be interesting coming from an owner viewpoint:
I am seriously starting to question the people I fly. Revolutions bring change and I think some of the clients I have show little respect to the average person. I only fly a C550 but I do worry that if I move to a Challenger that these clients will be unbearable. They are seemingly occupied with SELF. We all know the media portraits of jolly generous Buffet but surely we need better working conditions and be gone with these ridiculous Freelance contracts that leave you wondering if you are ever going to afford to buy a house,pay for your children or even keep current. I have had my licence for 6 years I previously worked in the HK a booming capitalist colony, that cash cow paid for my training. Since then I have flown relief food in South Sudan a heart wrenching job and Corporate Aviation in Europe. In the good old days the billionaires expected to pay their workers why now do they try and squeeze every dime. Attitudes need to change or long live the revolution. You cannot afford a plane if you can't afford to crew it.
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Marcus 550
Marcus makes valid points, and guys, assuming he is legit, he is the employer, and regardless of the PC remit of employers limited question range, I totally agree with him.
In the current climate it is refreshing to see the other side of the fence, and also the inside story.
Our job is not to fly the aircraft, a monkey can do that (G550 or Airbus), but to manage the resources, look after the owner and FAMILY.... ensure the safety of the passengers, as well as act many times as the PR person for the owner.
We are more involved in the lives of our passengers, than almost anyone else in thier business.
I am proud to be a freelance / contractor. I meet so many varied crews and owners, some good some bad....but I must adapt to their ways and needs not enforce mine.
Marcus, please do not take the remarks too seriously.
glf
In the current climate it is refreshing to see the other side of the fence, and also the inside story.
Our job is not to fly the aircraft, a monkey can do that (G550 or Airbus), but to manage the resources, look after the owner and FAMILY.... ensure the safety of the passengers, as well as act many times as the PR person for the owner.
We are more involved in the lives of our passengers, than almost anyone else in thier business.
I am proud to be a freelance / contractor. I meet so many varied crews and owners, some good some bad....but I must adapt to their ways and needs not enforce mine.
Marcus, please do not take the remarks too seriously.
glf
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Our job is not to fly the aircraft, a monkey can do that
In the current climate it is refreshing to see the other side of the fence, and also the inside story.
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Airbus and monkey
KAG, you are missing the point, pilot handling skills, and problem recognition two traditional SKILL associated with being a PILOT, are reduced by automation, to a degree that even Airbus are concerned.
Our duties now are 95% monitoring automation, call it a dog or a monkey, so be it.
In regard to the other side of the story, for a good conversation 50% of which is listening......
I beleive that it is the interview technique not skill that is important...The OWNER is basically hiring a close family friend, who has certain specialist skills.
If you dont like his interviews then dont work for him.
If you smoke, and arrive at an interview with a smell of smoke, I would suggest you will not be hired.....and as to alcohol, then forget it.... I also dislike strong breath mints and mouthwash..
(designed to cover up what.????)
glf
Our duties now are 95% monitoring automation, call it a dog or a monkey, so be it.
In regard to the other side of the story, for a good conversation 50% of which is listening......
I beleive that it is the interview technique not skill that is important...The OWNER is basically hiring a close family friend, who has certain specialist skills.
If you dont like his interviews then dont work for him.
If you smoke, and arrive at an interview with a smell of smoke, I would suggest you will not be hired.....and as to alcohol, then forget it.... I also dislike strong breath mints and mouthwash..
(designed to cover up what.????)
glf
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Gulfstream aviator:
I agree.
Cj:
Which is perfect because I have no intention nor willing to work for you.
More seriously, I fly B737NG, not Gulfstream anyway. I did flew a business jet in the past, but I am happy with my job right now, thanks for your concern.
I came here because the first poster had something interesting to say related with the news: occupy Wall Street, and I found his topic interesting.
It could even get more interesting if we could talk about it, especially this part:
KAG, you are missing the point, pilot handling skills, and problem recognition two traditional SKILL associated with being a PILOT, are reduced by automation, to a degree that even Airbus are concerned.
Our duties now are 95% monitoring automation, call it a dog or a monkey, so be it.
In regard to the other side of the story, for a good conversation 50% of which is listening......
I beleive that it is the interview technique not skill that is important...The OWNER is basically hiring a close family friend, who has certain specialist skills.
If you dont like his interviews then dont work for him.
If you smoke, and arrive at an interview with a smell of smoke, I would suggest you will not be hired.....and as to alcohol, then forget it.... I also dislike strong breath mints and mouthwash..
(designed to cover up what.????)
Our duties now are 95% monitoring automation, call it a dog or a monkey, so be it.
In regard to the other side of the story, for a good conversation 50% of which is listening......
I beleive that it is the interview technique not skill that is important...The OWNER is basically hiring a close family friend, who has certain specialist skills.
If you dont like his interviews then dont work for him.
If you smoke, and arrive at an interview with a smell of smoke, I would suggest you will not be hired.....and as to alcohol, then forget it.... I also dislike strong breath mints and mouthwash..
(designed to cover up what.????)
Cj:
If i had a Gulfstream, which I don't, I can honestly say that I would never hire KAG.
More seriously, I fly B737NG, not Gulfstream anyway. I did flew a business jet in the past, but I am happy with my job right now, thanks for your concern.
I came here because the first poster had something interesting to say related with the news: occupy Wall Street, and I found his topic interesting.
It could even get more interesting if we could talk about it, especially this part:
In the good old days the billionaires expected to pay their workers why now do they try and squeeze every dime.
We all know the media portraits of jolly generous Buffet but surely we need better working conditions and be gone with these ridiculous Freelance contracts that leave you wondering if you are ever going to afford to buy a house,pay for your children or even keep current.
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Remarks at interviews can easily be misunderstood. A few years ago, A colleague and I were interviewing candidates for an office job. It was a hot day, there was no air conditioning. One candidate looked uncomfortably hot so I suggested that it would be in order to remove her jacket if she so wished. This was later reported back in a letter to the MD., that I had asked her to take her top off!
I am not sure if she was seriously offended by my remark or it was a mischevious attempt to cause trouble because she did not get the job. Luckily my colleague who was present came to my defence, although quite how I would have coped with the accusation had I been conducting the interview alone, I am not quite sure.
I am not sure if she was seriously offended by my remark or it was a mischevious attempt to cause trouble because she did not get the job. Luckily my colleague who was present came to my defence, although quite how I would have coped with the accusation had I been conducting the interview alone, I am not quite sure.
KAG
Occupy Wall Street will end like the Paris Commune--a left-wing, idiotic dead end. They are offering nothing constructive, have no ideas on how to actually create jobs, careers or nes products that might create new jobs. It is a temper tantrum of the terminally whacked out.
Even the left wing democrats are nervous that it will be an anchor on the next election, US independent voters are running away FOM OWS. The Obamabots have managed to alienate their left wing base AND their Wall Street donor base.
A big steaming cup of Not Good.
GF
Occupy Wall Street will end like the Paris Commune--a left-wing, idiotic dead end. They are offering nothing constructive, have no ideas on how to actually create jobs, careers or nes products that might create new jobs. It is a temper tantrum of the terminally whacked out.
Even the left wing democrats are nervous that it will be an anchor on the next election, US independent voters are running away FOM OWS. The Obamabots have managed to alienate their left wing base AND their Wall Street donor base.
A big steaming cup of Not Good.
GF
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It's funny how personality, dedication and concern for the well-being of ones PAX is underestimated by so many pilots these days.
A good owner knows you can fly - you wouldn't have made it to the interview otherwise. You're not there to talk about your hours, type ratings and flying skills.
You're there to give your future employer a chance of knowing whether he will be comfortable having his children, parents and / or friends stuck in a metal tube for 12hrs with you up front.
It's all about personality. It can get you jobs you're not even qualified for. If you don't have the soft skills, you'll be on a bumpier road. Fact!
A good owner knows you can fly - you wouldn't have made it to the interview otherwise. You're not there to talk about your hours, type ratings and flying skills.
You're there to give your future employer a chance of knowing whether he will be comfortable having his children, parents and / or friends stuck in a metal tube for 12hrs with you up front.
It's all about personality. It can get you jobs you're not even qualified for. If you don't have the soft skills, you'll be on a bumpier road. Fact!
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You're there to give your future employer a chance of knowing whether he will be comfortable having his children, parents and / or friends stuck in a metal tube for 12hrs with you up front.
Lets face it, Marcusses approach is - IMO - good but relatively rare, at least over here in Europe. There are real good employers, of course, but if we look at the big picture these days there is a majority that just want to save, no matter how much it will cost them in the end.
I was with a good guy for 14 years and I have had 2 employers that I wouldn't wish to work for ever again and for the last 4 years Iīm working for a good company that I hope will keep me until retirement.
So for me the balance is sort of even right now. I hope it stays that way....
The OWNER is basically hiring a close family friend, who has certain specialist skills.
Friendship? Hmmm, I donīt think so. I also donīt think it would be a thing to desire. I will be friendly and polite, of course, I will do my job to the best of my abilities, I donīt have any trouble with Kiddies (despite not having 'any that I know of') and would never mind to go the extra mile, but in the end I will stay an employee and nothing else. I seriously doubt that the other party would see that differently. Especially when there are disagreements... that develop pretty quick when it comes to money issues.
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d&b
Why would I come to you for employment?
We are not moons turning around you planet here, don't think everybody needs you, and anyway that's not even about hiring this thread.
GF
I undersstand that what they want is mainly justice because of the increasing gap between extremely rich and normal workers.
His dudeness
Good point. The fact that extremely rich people hire some pilot shouldn't turn them into a kind of domestic, part of the family when it comes to help this family, but domestic for everything else.
KAG.
WTF? Don't ever come to me for employment!
WTF? Don't ever come to me for employment!
We are not moons turning around you planet here, don't think everybody needs you, and anyway that's not even about hiring this thread.
GF
Occupy Wall Street will end like the Paris Commune--a left-wing, idiotic dead end. They are offering nothing constructive, have no ideas on how to actually create jobs, careers or nes products that might create new jobs. It is a temper tantrum of the terminally whacked out.
His dudeness
Friendship? Hmmm, I donīt think so. I also donīt think it would be a thing to desire. I will be friendly and polite, of course, I will do my job to the best of my abilities, I donīt have any trouble with Kiddies (despite not having 'any that I know of') and would never mind to go the extra mile, but in the end I will stay an employee and nothing else. I seriously doubt that the other party would see that differently. Especially when there are disagreements... that develop pretty quick when it comes to money issues.