First time flying overseas!
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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First time flying overseas!
Hey guys,
Was wondering if I could get some advice/pointers. I fly a private Lear in Canada, and my clients want to go to Europe next month. What advice can you give a first timer whos never flown overseas. Any advice in regards to flight planning, customs, over flight permits, and any other things you can think of would be great.
Thanks
Was wondering if I could get some advice/pointers. I fly a private Lear in Canada, and my clients want to go to Europe next month. What advice can you give a first timer whos never flown overseas. Any advice in regards to flight planning, customs, over flight permits, and any other things you can think of would be great.
Thanks
Join Date: Apr 2010
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A few things that come to mind:
Both pilots need to be type rated on your Lear.
Good planning is critical but can be a lot of fun. Start yesterday. Have you taken any sort of Int'l procedure training course? Even so a lot will have changed...it always does.
Contract with a handler..at least on your first trip.
Use the SAFA checklist to be sure you have all the docs a ramp check will expect you to have. PM me with your email if you need one.
Lots of great, and current, info about your Atl. crossing procedures on the N. Atlantic enroute chart 1/2.
Both pilots need to be type rated on your Lear.
Good planning is critical but can be a lot of fun. Start yesterday. Have you taken any sort of Int'l procedure training course? Even so a lot will have changed...it always does.
Contract with a handler..at least on your first trip.
Use the SAFA checklist to be sure you have all the docs a ramp check will expect you to have. PM me with your email if you need one.
Lots of great, and current, info about your Atl. crossing procedures on the N. Atlantic enroute chart 1/2.
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Be aware of the Emission Trade Scheme in place in Europe, that MIGHT affect you. (I donīt know honestly, being German we are 'part of it')
Be aware of slot regulations, there are both airport slots at some places and the infamous Eurocontrol generated airways slots.
Make sure your handler requests the airport slots for you, in Europe a lot of the handlers donīt think 'real' handling is their part of the equation... a lot of them think, taking you from and to your airplane plus generating huge bills is their part.
Be aware of slot regulations, there are both airport slots at some places and the infamous Eurocontrol generated airways slots.
Make sure your handler requests the airport slots for you, in Europe a lot of the handlers donīt think 'real' handling is their part of the equation... a lot of them think, taking you from and to your airplane plus generating huge bills is their part.
For our flights to Europe from the USA in the Lear 60, Jepp was superb in every respect from flight plans and slots to ground transportation, hotels and fueling. We were able to charge many of these things directly to our Jepp account. While in Europe we'd typically fly several legs to different countries, so this service was highly valued. We always had slots and everyone knew when to expect us.
The major hurdles in preparing for the first trip involved making sure of the necessary documentation. MNPS, RVSM, RNAV, 8.33 Khz, FM immunity, Enhanced mode S and the list goes on. The SAFA checklist is very handy too. NAV database and paper chart revision cycle timing with your trip is worth looking at in case you need to make any special provisions to receive updates.
As for the actual flying, there were few surprises. We had done the Air Training International IP course online recently, so the oceanic procedures stuff was at least pretty fresh in our minds for the first trip. Going random route from Goose or Gander, I recall getting our oceanic clearance on the ground. Same headed West out Shannon. Check the HF before leaving home though. I was glad we did because the antenna coupler needed some work.
Once in Europe just remember to take note of the TL/TA at each airport of arrival/departure. We wrote it down on a piece of paper and taped it on the instrument panel. I had read that this is the source of a high percentage of level busts recorded by Eurocontrol. Expect parking to be in remote areas of European airports and van rides necessary to reach the offices of your handling agents. No FBOs in the sense we're accustomed to in North America. Some countries even make you go through airline style security to get to your plane like they do in Mexico. Plan LOTS of extra pre-flight time at the airport. I suggest informing owner pax that they can expect big delays due to lost slot times if they show up late too. Sometimes you can get a new slot pretty quick and sometimes you're just out of luck.
And lastly, remember that bit about calling Canpass BEFORE taking off from the last airport prior to re-entering Canada! It seems to be the one sure way to upset those guys. They cut us a break for calling them via Satcom 2 hours out but issued a sternly delivered warning nonetheless. (thanks eh?)
I hope you get a clear view on at least one of your crossings.
westhawk
The major hurdles in preparing for the first trip involved making sure of the necessary documentation. MNPS, RVSM, RNAV, 8.33 Khz, FM immunity, Enhanced mode S and the list goes on. The SAFA checklist is very handy too. NAV database and paper chart revision cycle timing with your trip is worth looking at in case you need to make any special provisions to receive updates.
As for the actual flying, there were few surprises. We had done the Air Training International IP course online recently, so the oceanic procedures stuff was at least pretty fresh in our minds for the first trip. Going random route from Goose or Gander, I recall getting our oceanic clearance on the ground. Same headed West out Shannon. Check the HF before leaving home though. I was glad we did because the antenna coupler needed some work.
Once in Europe just remember to take note of the TL/TA at each airport of arrival/departure. We wrote it down on a piece of paper and taped it on the instrument panel. I had read that this is the source of a high percentage of level busts recorded by Eurocontrol. Expect parking to be in remote areas of European airports and van rides necessary to reach the offices of your handling agents. No FBOs in the sense we're accustomed to in North America. Some countries even make you go through airline style security to get to your plane like they do in Mexico. Plan LOTS of extra pre-flight time at the airport. I suggest informing owner pax that they can expect big delays due to lost slot times if they show up late too. Sometimes you can get a new slot pretty quick and sometimes you're just out of luck.
And lastly, remember that bit about calling Canpass BEFORE taking off from the last airport prior to re-entering Canada! It seems to be the one sure way to upset those guys. They cut us a break for calling them via Satcom 2 hours out but issued a sternly delivered warning nonetheless. (thanks eh?)
I hope you get a clear view on at least one of your crossings.
westhawk
Join Date: Sep 2011
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He is planning for a flight next month. ETS reporting does not commence until next year. He can come and go as he pleases without any concern for emissions reporting!
A Canadian may not know what a SAFA inspection is. In essence it is a ramp check conducted by personnel authorised to carry out inspections on behalf of EASA.
This link will let you know what will (or may) be checked.
Inspection items | Safa Guide
The link will tell you the actual checklist, instructions and legal references they use. This is worth a read for those operating in Europe, and highlights instances where EASA requirements are unenforceable due to contradiction with ICAO.
The following link shows guidance given to SAFA inspectors. It too is also worth a read as it spells out what they can, can't, should and should not do.
http://www.caa.bg/upload/docs/SAFA_G..._July_2009.pdf
A Canadian may not know what a SAFA inspection is. In essence it is a ramp check conducted by personnel authorised to carry out inspections on behalf of EASA.
This link will let you know what will (or may) be checked.
Inspection items | Safa Guide
The link will tell you the actual checklist, instructions and legal references they use. This is worth a read for those operating in Europe, and highlights instances where EASA requirements are unenforceable due to contradiction with ICAO.
The following link shows guidance given to SAFA inspectors. It too is also worth a read as it spells out what they can, can't, should and should not do.
http://www.caa.bg/upload/docs/SAFA_G..._July_2009.pdf
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ETS reporting does not commence until next year. He can come and go as he pleases without any concern for emissions reporting!
that MIGHT affect you. (I donīt know honestly
You might want to check this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-fl...-helpdesk.html
Join Date: Sep 2011
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To Dudes (and our non European friends),
Yes, it will affect ALL aircraft flying into the 27 JAA states from 1st Jan 2012.
This is seriously pi**ing off a lot of countries because they will not only pay for the emissions they spurt out over Europe, but they will pay for ALL of the emissions they spurt out elsewhere before they arrive over European airspace. And guess who gets ALL of the money? Yep, right first time...it goes into the pot of the European Trading Emissions Scheme, irrespective of which other lands you may have overflown. If you fly into Europe, it don't matter where you emitted, WE get the money for ALL of your en route CO2 burn!
Don't you just love these Eurocrats? Won't be long before all visitors will have to pay to breath our air.
Yes, it will affect ALL aircraft flying into the 27 JAA states from 1st Jan 2012.
This is seriously pi**ing off a lot of countries because they will not only pay for the emissions they spurt out over Europe, but they will pay for ALL of the emissions they spurt out elsewhere before they arrive over European airspace. And guess who gets ALL of the money? Yep, right first time...it goes into the pot of the European Trading Emissions Scheme, irrespective of which other lands you may have overflown. If you fly into Europe, it don't matter where you emitted, WE get the money for ALL of your en route CO2 burn!
Don't you just love these Eurocrats? Won't be long before all visitors will have to pay to breath our air.
Won't be long before all visitors will have to pay to breath our air.
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I'm wanting to do open heart surgery in a fortnight, and as I've never done it before, any pointers appreciated...
My best sincere advice is to hire up a contract PIC who makes international trips monthly. If you don't you are making a big big big mistake.
Not trying to be disrespectful, but everything is in Europe is different, with a thousand "gotchas". SAFA, Slots, controller Syntax, Sertification of aircraft are but a few.
Are you sure your aircraft is legal? Do you have authorization to fly in NMPS airspace?... Believe me, the list is long and getting longer by the day!
Europeans are humorless when it comes to your lack of anything.
Please don't start listening to any of the comments above, you might think you can go it alone.
FR
My best sincere advice is to hire up a contract PIC who makes international trips monthly. If you don't you are making a big big big mistake.
Not trying to be disrespectful, but everything is in Europe is different, with a thousand "gotchas". SAFA, Slots, controller Syntax, Sertification of aircraft are but a few.
Are you sure your aircraft is legal? Do you have authorization to fly in NMPS airspace?... Believe me, the list is long and getting longer by the day!
Europeans are humorless when it comes to your lack of anything.
Please don't start listening to any of the comments above, you might think you can go it alone.
FR
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Frank, a trip to Europe may involve leaving your comfort zone, but it is not beyond the capabilities of any qualified pilot who, like the OP, is taking the time to familiarise himself with the different procedures and requirements.
If he makes sure that he is legal he will find that European airspace is a professional, efficient and very friendly environment, and one operated by people who will be more than happy to help, rather than hinder.
Go for it, I say, and enjoy the flight. You will be made to feel welcome.
If he makes sure that he is legal he will find that European airspace is a professional, efficient and very friendly environment, and one operated by people who will be more than happy to help, rather than hinder.
Go for it, I say, and enjoy the flight. You will be made to feel welcome.
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Sorry, but I just can't believe any professional pilot would believe that it is within the realm of safety to send a jet aircraft to Europe with two pilots who had never flown there before. As I said before, there are a thousand things, many of which they never address in IOP initial or recurrent.
Where in Canada is the airspace similar to flying within the Continent? (nowhere).
FR
Where in Canada is the airspace similar to flying within the Continent? (nowhere).
FR
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For a first trip, contact a company like Skyplan, Jeppesen or Colt. They can help sort out any of the initial flight planning questions as well as help with making sure the ATC filings have passed the Eurocontrol muster and ensure they are filed in a timely manner with the appropriate slots. They will also know enough to ask the appropriate questions regarding HF, MNPS, etc to ensure you're able to legally do the trip. Being refused your oceanic clearance is a bad time to find out you can't fly the routing you want due to lack of proper NAV equipment.
The hint about making sure your passengers recognize the importance of being on time is VERY important, unless your passengers like to sit for several hours on the ground in their airplane missing their next meeting in the next city. Some European airports are incredibly easy to get in and out of, others are a pain in the a$$ and a good ground handler is essential.
After the first trip, should be pretty easy for any professional flight crew to handle, give the North Atlantic charts a quick check and go for it.
amraam
The hint about making sure your passengers recognize the importance of being on time is VERY important, unless your passengers like to sit for several hours on the ground in their airplane missing their next meeting in the next city. Some European airports are incredibly easy to get in and out of, others are a pain in the a$$ and a good ground handler is essential.
After the first trip, should be pretty easy for any professional flight crew to handle, give the North Atlantic charts a quick check and go for it.
amraam
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Ostlerjs -
Welcome to the PPrune forums. Kudos for soliciting info from those more experienced. I have read the advice to you here from others, and as it always seems to be with PPruners, it is good stuff. As far as it goes. No post here can be of sufficient scope, depth, and detail to adequately prepare you for your intended journey. This comes from someone who has monthly circumnavigated the globe. Nothing is ever the same from trip to trip.
I strongly agree with others here who suggest that you engage the services of a seasoned Lear contract pilot with NAT and EUR experience. That along with use of Jepp or Universal for handling. Don't balk at the cost. Together, the experience and resources of the Handling Company and their local agents, and the Contract pilot will make the trip run smoother and ultimately help maintain your professional appearance to your clients / bosses.
When your first overseas trip is done, you will have learned a huge amount, and you will have a better idea of what you can do yourself on the next one, and where contracted services are best employed. Good flying, enjoy the diverse and wonderful people and history on the other side of the pond, and like Westhawk, I hope the view out your window is clear.
Welcome to the PPrune forums. Kudos for soliciting info from those more experienced. I have read the advice to you here from others, and as it always seems to be with PPruners, it is good stuff. As far as it goes. No post here can be of sufficient scope, depth, and detail to adequately prepare you for your intended journey. This comes from someone who has monthly circumnavigated the globe. Nothing is ever the same from trip to trip.
I strongly agree with others here who suggest that you engage the services of a seasoned Lear contract pilot with NAT and EUR experience. That along with use of Jepp or Universal for handling. Don't balk at the cost. Together, the experience and resources of the Handling Company and their local agents, and the Contract pilot will make the trip run smoother and ultimately help maintain your professional appearance to your clients / bosses.
When your first overseas trip is done, you will have learned a huge amount, and you will have a better idea of what you can do yourself on the next one, and where contracted services are best employed. Good flying, enjoy the diverse and wonderful people and history on the other side of the pond, and like Westhawk, I hope the view out your window is clear.
