New job offer.... Contract contains recurrent training bond.
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New job offer.... Contract contains recurrent training bond.
Hello. I have been looking to advance from my current company for a few months, and have been offered a new job. I have just seen my new contract, and would like some advice/opinions.
Aircraft: Multicrew jet. Midsize.
Company: Neither North-American or European.
Me: Few thousand hours total. Few hundred on type. (Already typed).
My main concern is that the company appears to want to bond me for my RECURRENT training. I am very familiar with the concept for initial training, but in this instance, the contract states a 12 month bond for recurrent training.
This would mean that unless I leave just before my recurrent (when I'm no use to anyone) I will have to find a sizeable cheque.
I have always viewed the cost of a recurrent simply as part of the 'price of doing business', so this has come as a bit of a shock.
Can anyone comment on other companies using a bond for recurrent training?
I can only add that the company concerned appears to be very professional, and with the exception of this one issue, I very much want to work for them.
Thanks. LPM.
Aircraft: Multicrew jet. Midsize.
Company: Neither North-American or European.
Me: Few thousand hours total. Few hundred on type. (Already typed).
My main concern is that the company appears to want to bond me for my RECURRENT training. I am very familiar with the concept for initial training, but in this instance, the contract states a 12 month bond for recurrent training.
This would mean that unless I leave just before my recurrent (when I'm no use to anyone) I will have to find a sizeable cheque.
I have always viewed the cost of a recurrent simply as part of the 'price of doing business', so this has come as a bit of a shock.
Can anyone comment on other companies using a bond for recurrent training?
I can only add that the company concerned appears to be very professional, and with the exception of this one issue, I very much want to work for them.
Thanks. LPM.
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The same happened to me, decreasing bond on the annual recurrent training, covering also travel expenses and hotac to the sim center. Not cheap, especially with Flight Safety.
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A former employer required a bond for recurrent, which limited you to timing your departure for another opportunity. Finally, I just bit the bullet and left. Pilot recurrent training is part of doing business and if its cost will make or break the operation, then they probably shouldn't be in the airplane to start with. Another employer required a contract for an initial type but after 24 months, the contract was fulfilled and you could leave free and clear. If you spend any decent amount of time with a single employer, my view is that they've gotten their moneys worth out of you and shouldn't require anything from you.
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A few people walked away without paying, and were taken to court.
I don't know the outcome but I wouldn't be surprised if these kind of bonds were declared illegal...
In any case I signed
I don't know the outcome but I wouldn't be surprised if these kind of bonds were declared illegal...
In any case I signed
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I could understand a bond even for a recurrent for your first year with them, to save against someone getting recurrent with one company, then leaving for another. I would be very suprised if its not decreasing throught the year though.....or do they expect you to pay even if you leave the day before it expires.
My advise is speak to the employer offering the contract. If you dont feel comfortable with this level of communication with them even before you start......maybe better off looking elsewhere.
good luck
My advise is speak to the employer offering the contract. If you dont feel comfortable with this level of communication with them even before you start......maybe better off looking elsewhere.
good luck
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Thanks for all the comments so far....
The contract is very clear.
Yes, it does decrease during the year (in a 'sliding scale' fashion). So if you leave six months after your recurrent, you pay half of the recurrent cost (plus incidentals.... hotac, flight, rental car etc).
What I am most uncomfortable with is that the bond "re-engergises" after every single recurrent. So, even if you give them ten years solid service, you are still liable for the balance of the recurrent you take with you.
Is this really how contracts are heading these days? For me, this is the first I have seen of it.
LPM.
The contract is very clear.
Yes, it does decrease during the year (in a 'sliding scale' fashion). So if you leave six months after your recurrent, you pay half of the recurrent cost (plus incidentals.... hotac, flight, rental car etc).
What I am most uncomfortable with is that the bond "re-engergises" after every single recurrent. So, even if you give them ten years solid service, you are still liable for the balance of the recurrent you take with you.
Is this really how contracts are heading these days? For me, this is the first I have seen of it.
LPM.
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Thanks again for all the posts.
As I've said before, I have always regarded the cost of a recurrent simply as the 'cost of doing business', so a contract with a recurrent bond caught me off guard a little.
The thought of being held to a permanent and perpetual bond was, for me, too much. I have decided not to sign and will therefore not be departing to pastures new. Shame, as I was very excited about living in the city in question, and the company (with the exception of this issue) seemed really good.
At least I get to feel I've done my little bit for defending our T and C's.... although I'd have preferred a new job!
As I've said before, I have always regarded the cost of a recurrent simply as the 'cost of doing business', so a contract with a recurrent bond caught me off guard a little.
The thought of being held to a permanent and perpetual bond was, for me, too much. I have decided not to sign and will therefore not be departing to pastures new. Shame, as I was very excited about living in the city in question, and the company (with the exception of this issue) seemed really good.
At least I get to feel I've done my little bit for defending our T and C's.... although I'd have preferred a new job!
Last edited by LPM; 27th Apr 2011 at 18:25. Reason: Typo
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LPM
Sorry but cannot see the problem? They fork out a wad of notes for your recurrent and you leave the following week?
You give them six months service and then leave why shouldnt they ask for the other half they have paid for back?
Its a way of them showing they are committed to you and expecting you to be committed to them. Frankly unless you up and leave to work for someone else I cannot see your gripe as it would not be an issue.
If you did up and leave maybe they have a moral right to bill the next employer for something they have paid for.
Pace
Sorry but cannot see the problem? They fork out a wad of notes for your recurrent and you leave the following week?
You give them six months service and then leave why shouldnt they ask for the other half they have paid for back?
Its a way of them showing they are committed to you and expecting you to be committed to them. Frankly unless you up and leave to work for someone else I cannot see your gripe as it would not be an issue.
If you did up and leave maybe they have a moral right to bill the next employer for something they have paid for.
Pace
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Socal....
Completely agree. As this was stated up front, I had the option of accepting or declining. It was my choice, and I don't expect all (or even most) to agree, as it is a personal call either way. I have no bad feelings against the company concerned.
Pace....
For me, it is about parity. I have no problem whatsoever will paying for the recurrent I take with me, as long as the new company pays for the recurrent that I bring at the start.
It all smarts of having your cake and eating it. Employers love getting one over on another by stealing a candidate straight after a recurrent, but they whinge when someone does it to them.
Completely agree. As this was stated up front, I had the option of accepting or declining. It was my choice, and I don't expect all (or even most) to agree, as it is a personal call either way. I have no bad feelings against the company concerned.
Pace....
For me, it is about parity. I have no problem whatsoever will paying for the recurrent I take with me, as long as the new company pays for the recurrent that I bring at the start.
It all smarts of having your cake and eating it. Employers love getting one over on another by stealing a candidate straight after a recurrent, but they whinge when someone does it to them.
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Hello!
This is one of the risks of employing people. And an employer can not delegate all his risks to his employees, can he? Otherwise he would have to share all his gains and profits with the employees as well for sake of fairness...
The best way for an employer to protect his training investment is to treat his people well. Then they will stay with him.
I would not sign this contract. Under no circumstances. You are better off as a freelance pilot than as an employee with those conditions!
Regards, Max
NB: Before I turned to flying, I worked as aerospace engineer. My various employers sent me to a lot of different training courses (mostly IT related). Never was I asked to share the cost of these courses or to sign a bond of any kind (would have been illegal in my part of the world anyway, as someone already pointed out).
They fork out a wad of notes for your recurrent and you leave the following week?
The best way for an employer to protect his training investment is to treat his people well. Then they will stay with him.
I would not sign this contract. Under no circumstances. You are better off as a freelance pilot than as an employee with those conditions!
Regards, Max
NB: Before I turned to flying, I worked as aerospace engineer. My various employers sent me to a lot of different training courses (mostly IT related). Never was I asked to share the cost of these courses or to sign a bond of any kind (would have been illegal in my part of the world anyway, as someone already pointed out).
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As always, take the best deal that is offered to you.
If you have a job with no bond attached, why not stay where you are?
If you want to advance your career, you often must take some risk. This is especially true this past three-four years.
I doubt that many of the "I never pay for a type" guys will advance in today's environment.
You should be flattered that they offered you the job. I bet there are lots of unemployed "mid-size" pilots reading this.
For reference, my current company wouldn't look at hiring a person who doesn't have six months remaining before recurrent.
Opinions are easy, decisions not so much.
I say go for it and good luck!
FR
If you have a job with no bond attached, why not stay where you are?
If you want to advance your career, you often must take some risk. This is especially true this past three-four years.
I doubt that many of the "I never pay for a type" guys will advance in today's environment.
You should be flattered that they offered you the job. I bet there are lots of unemployed "mid-size" pilots reading this.
For reference, my current company wouldn't look at hiring a person who doesn't have six months remaining before recurrent.
Opinions are easy, decisions not so much.
I say go for it and good luck!
FR
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I tend to go. With Franks sentiments. In this recession if you had a chance of bettering your flying career and turn it down just because you have to be bonded regarding recurrents then IMO you have made a serious error of judgement.
Some of us would love to have our recurrents paid for never mind making a small commitment to a lot of money someone has paid on you.
Yes in other walks of life companies pay for employee training but few match the levels of aviation costs. As a freelancer who has to source the cheapest recurrents I can and claw them back through charges I would love to be sent off for expensive recurrents at someone elses risk and cost.
The request that if I leave ( my choice) I have to pay a portion back sounds very reasonable.
Ok a few years ago in the days of milk and honey when qualified crew were in short supply you could very much state your own terms but its not milk and honey at present and most are very cautious at how they throw their money about.
Pace
Some of us would love to have our recurrents paid for never mind making a small commitment to a lot of money someone has paid on you.
Yes in other walks of life companies pay for employee training but few match the levels of aviation costs. As a freelancer who has to source the cheapest recurrents I can and claw them back through charges I would love to be sent off for expensive recurrents at someone elses risk and cost.
The request that if I leave ( my choice) I have to pay a portion back sounds very reasonable.
Ok a few years ago in the days of milk and honey when qualified crew were in short supply you could very much state your own terms but its not milk and honey at present and most are very cautious at how they throw their money about.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 28th Apr 2011 at 08:17.
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Some of us would love to have our recurrents paid for never mind making a small commitment to a lot of money someone has paid on you
I do know operators that require FULL CONTRACT PILOTS to pay for their annuals, CRM, First aid etcetc. and pay real small wages. They still find idiots who gladly do this plus bring their selffunded T/R. A happy new world.
What exactly is the commitment of the employer? (in the case above you can be put out of the job when the next, cheaper dude arrives at the doorstep)
Guys, you are shoveling your own grave. I couldnīt be interested less, but you also take down MY T&Cīs.
I need to make a living out of my job, if its just a hobby for you, then please pi$$ off and play somewhere else...