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Is it me... or the UK ATC system?

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Is it me... or the UK ATC system?

Old 14th Jul 2012, 07:42
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What was the reasoning for no IFR in Class G?
It was forbidden under Hitler and we donīt change things lighthearted and without pressure.

Seriously, nobody really knows. Some guy in an office decided that you can`t fly IFR below the MRVA (Minimum Radar Vectoring Altitude), an altitude you as a pilot usually donīt know btw... go figure.

At least we have airspace F, which in some case allow a relatively cheap IFR departure/approach possibility. Now EASA wants to take that away.

I for one think the Belgian Example should lead the way: no Government for more than a year and everything worked at least as good or bad as before....

Last edited by His dudeness; 14th Jul 2012 at 12:58.
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Old 14th Jul 2012, 12:17
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no IFR in G (Germany)

We can blame Adolf for everything, except for airspace G.

Right after WWII with Germany not being a sovereign state aviation and flying was forbidden for Germans and German companies. Military Aviation prevailed and only air carriers of allied counties were flying. In 1951 glider flying was permitted (initially with restrictions), in 1953 Lufthansa could form again and only after 1955 private aviation could reestablish.

Airspace structure reflected this development. FL 245 and above was initially reserved for the military, private aviation was limited to uncontrolled airspace (IFR was out of the question anyhow) and the in-between was left for commercial aviation.

As a concession the VMC-minima in uncontrolled airspace was set to this ridiculously low level.

Later private aviation was permitted up to FL 100 (ED-R 9, for those, who remember). Somewhere in the 80s (my memory leaves me there) the ICAO airspace classes were established and the original VMC-minima transfered.
Everything remained the same, just the name changed.

Being the masters of doubt, nothing gets changed lightly, as inappropriate it now may be.

I have a little hope in EASA. If they forbid airspace F, we have to get something in return. Maybe it's IFR in G.

Regards,
FR
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Old 14th Jul 2012, 16:10
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The simplest way to guard against it is by filing a flight level which is totally obviously decisively in controlled airspace
Doesn't always work We cruised at FL410, but during descent into Farnborough, we were cleared direct to a point, descend to FLx, Contact Farnborough Radar, You are clear of controlled airspace, radar service terminated

Then Farnborough Radar asked what kind of service did we require, without giving any options to choose from There was nothing shown in the Jeppesen high / Low level charts that cautioned us about this.

It was the same on departure, we were given radar heading and altitudes, but not advised that we were outside controlled airspace and required permission to enter controlled airspace.

This thread was the only thing that i had read that prepared me for flying in UK airspace...... Thanks..

Mutt
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Old 14th Jul 2012, 22:34
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Mutt, do you know this leaflet:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20110930SSL08.pdf

(too lazy to go through the whole thread to check wether it was mentioned already...)
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 05:34
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No I didn't know of its existence..... but should I? During the last month i have flown in 4 different continents, and 8 different countries. Am I really supposed to review the website of each countries CAA to find these little gems of wisdom.

His Dudeness, thanks for posting the link, my gripe isnt aimed at you, but at a system that is almost as annoying as flying into LeBourget when everyone, even Air Canada are speaking French

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Old 15th Jul 2012, 07:27
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Be careful Mutt, you're admitting you didn't self brief that Farnborough is situated in class G airspace (well at the time of writing it's actually Temporary Restricted Airspace or RA(T), becoming temporary class D controlled airspace or CAS(T) tomorrow until 15 Aug) nor did you self brief on UK Air Traffic Services Outside Controlled Airspace (ATSOCA).
By relying on Jeppesen, you and your company are not alone in making a fundamental mistake as Jeppesen are NOT regulated either by ICAO or by any national aviation authority thus you are placing total reliance on a company which claims to regulate itself as regards aeronautical information.
The UK AIP which Jeppesen are supposed to replicate for you guys is freely available on the internet (UMCC) and I would recommend all crews paying a first visit to the UK cross - check their Jeppesen info with this; you'll find some amazing omissions by Jeppesen plus the software supplied by them for your FMS may not tell you the 'whole story'. The arrival fix for Farnborough called ODIMI for instance (now replaced by ROVUS) was not present in many versions of FMS software supplied by Jeppesen and I spent many hours when I worked in ATC at Farnborough trying to get them to include it; they would blame Honeywell and Honeywell simply said they didn't know what was wrong.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 08:22
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To be honest Chevvron this is the whole reason why the UK ATSOCAS falls on its backside all of the time from a pilots point of view. I am sure its a cracking thing for covering the controllers arse.

A brit going other places is pretty well set up.

A none UK trained pilot inside CAS again not really a problem.

None UK trained pilot/ or one that hasn't been home since it came in operating into a Class G field its a mess.

If you then throw in a none native english speaker double the mess.

Then you have all the rules about entering into contracts with the controller and controllers actively controlling aircraft under a basic service.

Then there is people who just say "basic" service then don't realise they have no protection flying in both IMC and VMC.

You get basic service mixing with procedural service going into none radar fields all shooting IFR approaches.

Mutt isn't alone not having the brief, I doud't very much if even 5% of none UK visitors will have even heard of ATSOCAS. Out of that 5% I doudt alot of them even understand what the different services even mean. And even when you do tell them its so alien compared to the way the rest of the world does it, it really doesn't compute.

Doing a briefing my only success has been with.

BAsic = f@ck all service
Traffic = next to F@ck all service.
Deconfliction = be prepared to get vectored all round the shop above FL100 for low level traffic. But if you can get it off an approach controller is useful.

Procedural = OK if everyone is using it and speaks english but if anyone is on a basic or wx is ****e keep an eye on your TCAS and pray to a god of your choice and if you want to pray to more than one thats good airmanship. Better to just go Basic and look out the window if the wx is good.

The standard question is "why is this so complicated? It doesn't make sense"

I still can't think of any decent reply.

Also doesn't help that different Units have different methods of dealing with the different services.

Its also a huge pain that deconfliction service traffic have to be seperated from basic traffic which is visual with them. You wouldn't have to do that if you were flying in CAS.

Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Jul 2012 at 08:29.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 10:20
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His Dudeness, thanks for posting the link, my gripe isnt aimed at you
Thanks, just started sweating cause I didnīt know what wrong I did...

We fly relatively often to FAB (company office close by) and that is why I`m 'sort of familiar'....

Mad Jock: +1, good post! Plus: one more often than not does not get more than basic out of FAB. We always request deconfliction and often the controller is to busy...

The arrival fix for Farnborough called ODIMI for instance (now replaced by ROVUS) was not present in many versions of FMS software supplied by Jeppesen and I spent many hours when I worked in ATC at Farnborough trying to get them to include it; they would blame Honeywell and Honeywell simply said they didn't know what was wrong.
I was in FAB the day ROVUS was invented and our database (updated!) didnīt have it then (Honeywell -> 'powered by Jeppesen') After landing I wrote an email to the FAB ATC explaining 'Honeywell' would not have it. Maybe thats were this particular blame came from.

To me, the exchange with Honeywell I had then revealed how the DB maker choose the waypoints to integrate...ROVUS just sits there on the map and has no connection to the procedures (its not on the arrival, nor used in the approach, at least as Jeppesen shows it)... so they just omitted it. The DB maker have no way of knowing what waypoints are used regurlarly by ATC.

OTOH why they think a waypoint of no use is put on a map I donīt know...

I guess the communication could be improved there...

Last edited by His dudeness; 15th Jul 2012 at 10:34.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 10:28
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At least tell him the pit falls of departing then getting refused entry into CAS and then having to try and avoid CAS while watching the fuel guages and working out how much you can burn before you have to do a tech stop.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 12:06
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His Dudeness: with me all this happened before I retired from Farnborough, must've been about 2005 or 6 'cos I retired in 2008. So after all my efforts then, the arrival fix most used (traffic rarely goes to PEPIS even now) is still not appearing on some software updates!
When I designed the procedure, I originally wanted to use the ODH TACAN, but the UK CAA said very firmly NO as it was a military aid (even though it appears on some FMS' ) which is why we defined ODIMI as a VOR offset. Why my successor changed it to ROVUS I don't know because if a pilot asked where ODIMI was, we could always tell him ODH or Odiham Airfield, now there's nothing to refer to.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 13:09
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We knew that the airport itself was in Class G, but look at how we planned to get there, look at the class of airspace associated with this route...

[IMG]

We most likely will be going back to pick up the person, so how would you suggest that we arrive to FAB? Once we leave GWC, what can we expect?

Mutt

Last edited by mutt; 15th Jul 2012 at 13:17.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 14:46
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Mad Jock....
BAsic = f@ck all service
Traffic = next to F@ck all service.
Now you cannot say that...I did feel soory for you as your balls froze in the Cub that day......a careing service I would call it!
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 14:59
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I do apologise FIS

I will change my brief next time I give it.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 15:02
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By relying on Jeppesen, you and your company are not alone in making a fundamental mistake as Jeppesen are NOT regulated either by ICAO or by any national aviation authority thus you are placing total reliance on a company which claims to regulate itself as regards aeronautical information.
What absolute nonsense. Jeppesen databases are highly regulated by aviation authorities. The database supplier is validated by the (E)TSO approval of the FMS or GPS, from an airworthiness point of view. From an Ops point of view, Jeppesen hold the Type 2 LoA for their database products from EASA and the FAA. From an Operational approval point of view, AOC holders' operations are approved by the NAA including reliance on Jeppesen databases and paper manauls.

It is utterly unrealistic to expect international operators to examine the minutae of every countries AIPs, AICs, Safety Sense leaflets etc etc. The normal practice in aviation is to use standard products like Jeppesen.

Having said that, I agree that the UK has a sort of quirkiness and non-standardisation (sometimes defended in an indignant way that implies the rest of the world is a nusiance for being out of step with the UK) which means an operator does need to self brief the big picture of IFR OCAS.
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Old 15th Jul 2012, 20:33
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Really depends what kind of operation. Any route manual in a europen AOC operation is part of the authority approved and accepted OM-C. In many cases that is the jeppesen manual, in others its a LIDO route manual or even navtech if you are really really out of luck. All of them approved by the authority governing the AOC of the airline/operator in question.
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Old 16th Jul 2012, 08:09
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Mutt: Don't expect to fly via PEPIS, it's only used as a last resort due to congestion or if you arrive before Farnborough opens in the morning or if you have comms failure when inbound.
After GWC, you will normally be told by London Control to resume your own navigation to ROVUS, then transferred to Farnborough Approach, who operate a mini TRACON for IFR traffic covering themselves, Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Lasham and Dunsfold, plus theoretically RAF Odiham. I say 'theoretically' because both Farnborough and Odiham have their own RAPCON facilities and co-ordinate traffic between themselves.
When in 2-way with Farnborough, you will be vectored for a visual or ILS approach as there are no pilot interpreted procedures to enable you to fly an ILS approach. If Farnborough experience radar failure, you may well wish to divert unless you are prepared to continue for a visual approach.

Last edited by chevvron; 16th Jul 2012 at 08:14.
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Old 16th Jul 2012, 08:10
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421C: I got that info from the secretary of the UK Flight Safety Committee.
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Old 16th Jul 2012, 10:20
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421C, Iīm not sure whether Type I approval for database products is what the whole discussion is about. D facto we have two discussions in this one...a) bout flightprep and b) about DBs

If we say 'the Jeppesen', we talk about the charts and maps, with the general or text part (Entry requ., ATC, MET, etcetc.) that a lot of us use for flight prep... And these are not covered by that approval...and from what I read in the disclaimer, Jeppesen does not guarantee anything.

Further, the approval is restricted:

Type 1 LOA
Letter of acceptance granted where a Navigation Database supplier complies with EUROCAE ED-76 / RTCA DO-200A documents with no identified compatibility with an aircraft system. A Type 1 LOA confirms that the processes for producing navigation data comply with these Conditions and the documented Data Quality Requirements. A Type 1 LOA may not release navigation databases directly to end users.
We use Jeppesen charts and maps, and the database for our FMS comes from a company called INDS, which in turn is a joint venture of Jeppesen and Honeywell.... I haven`t bothered to check if they are approved.

Last edited by His dudeness; 16th Jul 2012 at 10:22.
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Old 16th Jul 2012, 14:15
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It is utterly unrealistic to expect international operators to examine the minutae of every countries AIPs, AICs, Safety Sense leaflets etc etc. The normal practice in aviation is to use standard products like Jeppesen.
which means an operator does need to self brief the big picture of IFR OCAS.
I see these two statements as a contradiction to each other

Chevvron, thanks, we filed PEPIS as it was the only point that Eurocontrol would accept, and it also gave us a defined arrival route, albeit a loss of communications route. Lets see what happens the next time

Mutt
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Old 16th Jul 2012, 21:48
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I don't think there is any problem with Jepp data.

The main issue with the UK system is that many airports (especially ones frequented by GA, incluidng light jets) are in Class G (which is the only form on non controlled airspace in the UK, in general).

And the UK provides only a very fragmented ATC service in Class G.

If you stick to UK airports in controlled airspace (in most cases they are in Class D; a couple are in Class A) then you get the "classical IFR" ATC procedures which IFR pilots all over the world expect.

Once you drop into Class G then lots of things start to break down

One problem is that a non UK pilot can quite easily drop into Class G accidentally, because in "classical IFR" you don't carry VFR charts (which would clearly show the airspace classes) and the IFR charts show them very poorly, as weakly printed legends which few people look at.

Why the UK has this system I don't know; I've been flying only 12 years (1500hrs). It is probably to do with the way ATC is funded; it is not a "nationalised resource" like it is in nearly all countries. It has always been heavily into cost recovery, "user pays", and the extensive Class G airspace provides for easy VFR flying in which IFR (i.e. IMC flight) is permitted even non-radio. It is a quid pro quo on many fronts; the freedom of Class G means that very little in the way of ATC services needs to be provided; after all, you cannot "control" traffic in Class G and you cannot issue it with any form of a clearance (close airport proximity excepted).

The dissemination of aeronautical information is very variable. The AIPs are produced to fulfil ICAO obligations, not to deliver cockpit-usable documents, and for example the UK CAA is totally open about this when you ask their officials face to face. In southern Europe, the AIPs (as so much else) are full of out of date crap, and any airport op details ought to be verified with the airport directly. So Jeppesen step in with nice clear airport charts

Sometimes the pilot needs to be more pro-active, perhaps. For example ATC might give you an early descent, 100nm before the destination, pushing you into Class G and thus effectively cancelling your existing enroute clearance (which enabled you to penetrate all airspace classes, in accordance with standard IFR). You can refuse this, due to hazardous weather below. Actually this "early dumping" has been a hot topic in light IFR GA (sometimes pushing one into a flight at 2400ft, dodging traffic and low level convective wx) and it seems to be getting better.

Perhaps the best single thing is to be aware of which airports are in Class G. I notice some Jepp plates now say stuff like "procedure established outside controlled airspace".

Last edited by peterh337; 16th Jul 2012 at 21:49.
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