Paying for your rating !!!

[His dudeness]

Lets look at it from the other side!
Get to the office early - phone is ringing.
Quote on about 20 charters - will be lucky to get one.
An hour later - not even a nibble - quote again dropping profit margins to $200
Eventually we get one - call crew and dispatch the aircraft to Geneva empty to pick up pax.
Captain phones from Geneva - aircraft has a technical.
Call out standby crew - dispatch second aircraft to Geneva - this is costing me $2000
Another captain calls in sick for tomorrows flight - will have to call out expensive contract pilot.
Broken aircraft in Geneva will take 3 days to repair - crew hotac for three days!!
Interviews today to replace a captain that resigned - cant find type rated crew - a few good low hour pilots that don't want to pay for type rating.
Phone the owner and tell him I need 30K (10 to upgrade an F/O and 20K for new pilot TR)
Owner screams at me down the phone - the business already owes him close to a million - threatens to shut the business and slams the phone down in my ear.
The mail arrives - insurance is going up 10%
I look out the window - the sky is grey.

Suitcaseman, having been in the same situation I understand you perfectly well. And I know, that when it rains it pours...

OTOH, and I know its easy said..., if on can´t make money in a business or looses for quite a while, then its better to get out of business. What we have seen in the past good years, was that everyone that wasn´t up a tree after counting to three got a loan to buy an airplane. And dozens of operators that - apparently - talked people into airplanes that usually not would have bought one. All fine as long as you can keep the wave of costs - that will come one day or another e.g. HSI - IF it breaks right over your head, the company is done. Thats aviation business 1 x 1 so far.

Now, why exactly should I prolong such a shady thing by buing a TR, getting paid as much or rather little as anyone else with no protection from losing my investment. Why exactly should I pay for a rating that came with the airplane and now costs 20000? Why should I pay for my training, when the owner of the airplane would never think about asking his secretary to self fund training on a new software he wishes her to use?
The layout for the typerating should be on the employers side, and that has to become the law, otherwise nothing will change.

In the current situation I would say, okay, a years bond is acceptable. But anything more than that is just....

And as "suitcaseman" points out, nothing in this life comes for free: If the operator pays for your typerating, then you have to accept a lower initial salary or some other penalties. Everywhere. Even in your operation I assume. Every airline cadet scheme works that way: They pay for your training, you earn less money - you pay for your training, you earn more money. Rocket science for beginners, so to say.

Not wrong, but the essential difference to me is where the risk is. If a multimillion dollar aircraft owner has a risk of losing, say, 20k€ then that is FUNDAMENTALLY different to young dude already having 70k€ loans and then investing further. Currently it is way lower pay then it used to pay AND SSTR. if anyone finds this right, or how it should be, then...I´m not with em.

Max, just look to the other operator at your homebase. There you pay for your rating, preferably on their airplanes, checkrides, medicals, all courses such as CRM, FA, FF etc. and on top you earn peanuts. And no guarantee that you fly a lot and therefore the investment at least gives you experience.

[Pilot Positive]

companies are in plain and simple terms... "TAKING THE PISS !!! "

Whilst its easy to highlight the difficulties in making money in ANY industry ("oh no we have such big overheads and fuel is expensive and oh look at the insurance costs going up and oh no we have to pay for hotels and eletricity for the office and woe is me as its such hard work with sooo many problems etc etc...") it doesnt seem right that the guy running/owning the business asks his employees to cash flow his business. Put more work in, yes, and even raise the standard required perhaps.

The simple reason is that the guy who owns the business is taking the initial risk by investing in the business in the first place and will therefore reap the reward if all goes to plan... I dont see or hear any operators offering young FOs equity in their business in exchange for them paying for their training. Do you?

If the business guy wants to make money then he needs to know the cost and risk of entering the industry rather than following a policy of risk tranfer without reward transfer. I have seen too many FOs being exploited and losing large sums of cash with little or no return.

And whilst its a cute business move to invent an elaborate P2F scheme to exploit the high number of low houred, young and possibly well funded pilots it continues to undermine and erode the general conditions of the indutsry we work in.

Times are achanging and i hope that this kind of practice weakens out and gives way to a system of where merit rather than cash warrants a position.

[swampthing]

@ Pilot Positive Mate.. You are on the Button!!!! I could not agree more !!

[FlyingGasMain]

suitcaseman - I'm not sure you're comparing like for like training. Almost all new pilots looking for a job now have paid themselves for their training up to frozen ATPL. That in itself represents £30,000 to £50,000 (maybe more) before considering living expenses etc. Employers then want you to spend £10,000 - £30,000 more on top of that on a type rating. You are looking at a very large outlay, and that last chunk of money is only going to qualify you on one type of aircraft. I imagine a veterinary qualification is reasonably general and opens up the potential to apply for plenty more jobs than having a type rating on one aircraft.

[moonym20]

The P2F or work for peanuts scenario is simply a vicious circle of attrition.

I'm happy to bet most the gents talking on here have plenty of industry experience behind them, some have probably enjoyed the good ol' days and watched the industry change and crumble around them. It's desperate times for most folk.

You have person 'A' who went with their dreams, paid a fortune, got their tickets and went out in search of that dream job. Most aren't lucky and end up searching for a long, long time. Person A comes up against the same questions "have you got a TR?" "have you got much experience?"... Person A can see the dilemma, how do I get experience if i cant get a job, how can i get a job with low experience.. Whats the next best way to encourage someone to go employ you... How the hell do i pay all these bills?... undercut the current crew, work for peanuts and get the experience. Better yet, to stand out and have a better chance of a job go and get a self-funded TR then when someone is looking for crew they will have a closer look at person A above the other pilot who has no TR and no experience.

The airlines saw they could get away with this when young lads were that desperate to land a job in the right seat they would pay for the lot, accept appalling terms and ask no questions..

It was mentioned before that most companies/departments are feeling the pinch.. so when a person walks through the door, heaps of enthusiasm and making it clear they will happily work for next to nothing and be loyal for giving them a chance, what do you do?

Its a nasty vicious circle, the rot is setting in now. It would be great to ask all the crews, airlines & corporate to close ranks and demand change, but the truth is there are folks out there who are so incredibly desperate to pay bills & land that dream job that they will go to any lengths to make it happen, no matter the cost to themselves or the industry...

Its unlikely to change for quite some time... please remember, trying to find a job right here and right now is worlds apart to how it was 15 years ago... if high time jet jocks are having a tough time finding any manner of work, think of the little guys who are new to the industry, they got no hope.. so how do they manage it?

[cldrvr]

I am with DA50 on this one. I am part of, or associated with, a few recruitment processes in our industry and will always discard any applicant who has a SSTR on his/her CV. Why would I willingly participate in the erosion of our TnC's? Why would I even contemplate hiring a pilot that got his rating on the cheap using standard SOP's who is not trained to the standard that I expect and who falls outside of my supervision and quality control?

Want to buy a job? Go to the locos, plenty there will take your money.

[Propellerpilot]

But exactly that SSTR will eventually stir up a problem, as the experienced older league retires: there will always be the pool of guys who have earned or inherited enough money to sponsor their TR, however it is becoming more and more expensive even to afford an ATP and the industry will be forced to invest in people again - it is just a question of time.

Although common practice with the airlines, I see some GA Bizjet companies are also heading towards funny psychometric testing to find the right candidates these days to minimize the risk of hiring the wrong type of people. If this really produces better pilots is of course questionable. I would however rather still take the chance of going through that selection process and get a ticket for good training and a subsequent TR, than spending all the money out of my own pocket in order to fly with some dubious company with people flying, who don't even belong there, for many possible reasons.

[His dudeness]

I am paying a fortune to put my kids through university, for example to become a vet! Nobody is going to help me pay for my kids qualification and if they don't have it they wont get the job. Most industries will hire the most (or suitably) qualified person. They don't offer to pay for you to get the qualification, you get it before you apply and hope for the best. Why would flying be different!

Well, if one of the kids gets hired, say as an graduate engineer, and it has to work with a CAD programm different from the one they learned and trained in university, any employer that I know would give you that qualification. If the company uses SAP or any other prog, the kid gets training for that.

So I would compare the degree with the CPL/frozen ATP, that is the investment the employee brings with him and the rating is like the CAD course etcetc. Brought into the 'marriage' by the employer.

The real question is, when should it stop, the SSTR? When you have 500 hrs? a 1000? 5000? I´ve got 8000 and a bit hours now and if I were to seek work these days I´d probably be asked to buy a rating.

So when exactly would I get a return on investment? I´ve completed 2 CR´s and 4 TR´s. Thats roughly 120.000-130.000€ worth of training, less the refreshers. After taxes I´d have to spent roughly 3 years working just to repay that - and not spent a cent whilst doing that. So if I´d spent half of my wages after taxes for 6 years before I can enjoy my salary for myself? Show me any other profession were that is the case. If I were to pay my refreshers, then another 200.000€ would be on my books. that would be another 9 years half the salary. 15 altogether, out of my 21 years in aviation.

Look at the example for a new dude, 70.000€ in debt for his CPL/fATP and say 15.000 for the rating (that would be a cheap one) thats 85.000€.

I personally know people that are in exactly this position and they do earn 1800€ before taxes. That is, if your taxclass in germany is 1, maybe 1200-1300€ after taxes. So the guy lives at home and only uses a bicycle to get to work. Say this guy needs 300€ per month to live (you´d get more than that by social security in Germany & live is so cheap when staying in hotels in Dubai or Moscow or London), leaving him with a 1000 per month to pay his debts. After 85 months he´d be free of debt. Thats 7 years. IF he can stay with one employer!!! What if the company goees bust and he has to SS another TR in order to pay his debts? Add another 15-20-25k€? Thats another 2 years...

I know, he would most likely made captain after 3-4 years and the financial situ should be better then, but I also know companies where you pay upgrade costs. (after all, a supervisor cost a lot of money, doesn`t he?)

I just wonder how a clever business man would hire people that are to dumb to do the maths on their very own living, to look after their million dollar investment.

[Superpilot]

OK. Time out. Get a grip you guys that cast aside SSTR guys due to some obnoxious belief we are all young (without commitment), rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers. Spare a thought for us guys at the lower end who have no other choice.

I graduated in 2008 after saving for over 5 years. No money owed to parents or banks. I had no connections; no friends owning aircraft charter firms and certainly no dad/uncle working within the aviation business. I was however a 20 something married father and payer of a mortgage and bills. I've mentioned the last bit because there is no way I could’ve taken up instructing. Why would I have done that anyway? Which recruitment pilot is interested in my puddle jumper hours? - Easy, Wizz and at least 3 other European airlines have factorisation tables that take your 1,000 SEP hours and spit out just 10 !

Fast forwarding a bit, from 2008 till now (2011) the only operator interested in interviewing newbies (regardless of where they trained) has been RyanAir and the odd ad by TNT (with no doubt hundreds if not thousands applying). I had a Ryanair interview (my only one since graduating). Didn’t get through.

What must one do to get hired? Scrap that. What must one do to get INTERVIEWED if one is not a pre-selected airline cadet? Just look around you, UK and an increasing number of European airlines are just not interested in fresh low hours graduates if they’ve not been trained integrated-stylee by the likes of CTC or Oxford! These two flight-schools have the monopoly in the UK. Modular guys go ignored. If you’re a modular schmuck like me, the doors are closed nowawadays – This isn’t 1999 or 2004. You can try the tight and insular corporate/GA world all you like but if have no connections, the chances are even less than getting hired by an airline. The GA positions which do hire low experienced guys tend to have a requirement for a minimum of 150-200 multi piston hours and they are of course very few and far in between. Without a job, 200 MEP hours cost around £200 x 200 = £40,000 if you're not into Parker pen hours like me. I’ve sent in the region of 500 applications over 3 years, easily. It's been the usual deal, you know the score.

As a lowly modular student, in order to increase my chances I've got to do something else with my blue wallet. Something drastic! The choices: 1.) Make up the experience (unfortunately, many do) 2.) Buy a multi-turbine aircraft and build time! 3.) Buy a type rating (the more niche the better) in the hope that someone looking to hire in a hurry may do you a favour. In 2009 I had no idea which to do! Then I looked all around me. SSTRs were big, and were clearly working. Just months before I started, I witnessed at least 5 guys walk straight into jobs with respectable carriers with less than 250 TT and an A320 rating. What was I going to do? Be the fool, and not follow suit?

What has happened since the TR is another story. The recession got deeper and deeper. Since I finished the TR, I’ve not heard of a single person getting hired on the back of a TR alone and that includes me. Oh well, you take your chances and sometimes you still fail. I’m not the only one though. I am one of thousands of pilots in my situation – nothing special.

The short of it is that the current breed of chief pilot at airlines is simply not interested in unselected (non CTC and Oxford types) who have trained modularly because of some bizarre belief that we make **** pilots. This decision is made without even reading a CV in detail, without an assessment or interview of any sort. All of this even though we have been trained to the same standards, pass the same exams and checkrides (often the same examiners are doing the checkrides!). EZY, Monarch, MyTravel, TCX, Thomson, BA CitiFlyer all only hire newbies who have attended CTC/Oxford. CTC/Oxford are big business, the bigger the business the closer the bond. The closer the bond, the closer the favours The recruitment departments of airlines have quite literally sold out!

The UK pilot recruitment scene is a complicated mess. If you’ve not been a wannabe/newbie after the year 2007, I’m afraid you just don’t know the harsh reality of it. You’ve got your > 1,500 TT, you’ve got your magical 500 or 1000 on type. Unfortunately, this blurs your vision of what is happening at the lower end of the pilot recruitment scene these days. SSTRs are being increasingly taken up by modular pilots who are being ignored by airlines and who do not have the experience necessary to apply for coporate/GA positions. SSTRs may not drastically improve chances but even a 25% increase in likelihood of getting hired is worth it. Just an example, I saw an ad the other day for a Premier 1 rated FO, no experience on type required. SSTRs work and you can't blame us for taking advantage of what works. It's called being dynamic and adapting. They are in effect, no worse than bonds with the airline not having to wait 35 days for you to get trained. When you see it like this, your eyes will open.

I close this heartfelt response by challenging any chief pilot/recruiter to tell me I'm wrong about everything I say concerning low hours modular pilots and the reality that is the pilot recruitment scene in the UK today. We have no freaking way out due to lack of fair and equal assessment opportunities.

[His dudeness]

Get a grip you guys that cast aside SSTR guys due to some obnoxious belief we are all young (without commitment), rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers.

Superpilot, whilst there are some rich, spoilt and privileged queue jumpers, I guess most of us having a job are quite aware of how the market - and not alone in the UK - looks like. I have a lot of sympathy for you guys, I was unemployed once as well and when I joined aviation in early 1990 the market was also tits up.

IF, a big IF and - I admit it - in all likelyhood it won´t happen, no one would buy a TR him/herself, the airlines/operators would have to do that.

I think that is clear. Its also clear that the airlines did that when I was quite a bit younger.

Now what is also clear, is the fact that IF we - the pilots - continue to do what we are doing now, the profession won´t earn one a living any more. This will take some time. Whilst I have "only" 23 years to retirement, you (I presume) young dudes need to earn something the next 43,44,45 years.

So the concern I have is more for your future than for mine. If things don´t go too wrong I´ll retire at my current position. (at least I hope it).

Again, I feel very sorry for everyone that is unemployed.
But this stuff has to end. Otherwise you might need a second job besides flying just to be able to live. For the whole career. Think about it. And if you´re in coorperate or air taxi work, you will be in contact and fly people that earn your yearly wage in day.
Have a bird strike, engine goes to the shop, 250000USD gone. Owner does not care. 20.000 for TR is too much?

Buy catering in Moscow for 8 people, for one flight, thats roughly 3000 USD.
20.000 for a TR is too much ?
A toilet service is on average a 150 USD, so the equivalent of 133 toilet services is too much ?

I´m far from being a communist, but we - as a society, not only us pilots - have to take a stand. Otherwise we´re back to square 1 aka the circiumstances our ancestors lived in and fought against. (Unions, labour rights etcetc.)

[galaxy flyer]

For an airline, initial training is a rather marginal cost; they already have the sims and the instructors. For a new jet buyer, the PA includes 2-4 ratings, so no cost there, it's in the purchase. As His Dudeness says, a rating for a biz jet is a very small percentage of the cost of operating. The cost of a EU to US trip in a Global category plane exceeds the cost of a rating by a factor of 4 or 5. Buying ratings is a hamster wheel!

Simple economics says when the costs exceed the expected returns the only reasonable outcome is to leav the game--the market is saying get out! Subsidize your employer and it will never end.

GF

[swampthing]

I Agree with His Dudeness, I have seen money being wasted in HUGE amounts, they don't care to spend £20 000 in a flash on stupid expenses.. Catering like His Dudeness has pointed out, is one of the most expensive factors on a flight... Now imagine having catering for 3 people on a flight, that they did not touch and was enough to be lined up on the Aircrafts wing from root to tip !!!

These companies and owners must wake up to life and see what is happening to the aviation industry, they are very happy to spend truck loads of money on the most trivial of things... but on the one "thing" that is there to deliver them safely to their destination and the one "thing" that they need to be loyal to them... on that one "thing" they are not prepared to spend any money !! That one "thing" is of course.. the pilot.

I do not go and buy myself an Aston Martin and then take it for a service and demand the technician must pay me for the privilege to work on my car !! If you buy the car, you also buy the expense to operate it !! The same goes for a plane, if you buy the plane, you buy the expense to operate it and a plane does NOT operate without a pilot !!!

We as pilots must start to pull together and stop this SSTR insanity which is a poison and a cancer eating it's way through what was once our proud profession !!!

[what next]

Good morning!

his Dudeness: But this stuff has to end. Otherwise you might need a second job besides flying just to be able to live. For the whole career. Think about it.

Good point. And true in any case. That has always been my key advice to wannabe pilots/students: Get yourself some kind of non-aviation-related qualification before starting your flying stuff. Finish your college/university studies first, finish you apprenticeship as a plumber, get yourself some IT qualification, even a truck-driving-license will help. Whatever. With such a background, your position in relation to employers changes radically: They have to lure you away from your "other life", you do not need to beg for anything. As I said above, I never paid for a type rating. Why? Because I never gave them the leverage to make me pay. I was always in a position to be able to say no.

I´m far from being a communist, but we - as a society, not only us pilots - have to take a stand. Otherwise we´re back to square 1 aka the circiumstances our ancestors lived in and fought against. (Unions, labour rights etcetc.)

Agreed. But again, "we" must be able to afford this. Saying no is only possible if you have an alternative way to support yourself (and your family). With your back against the wall, your only option is to take what "they" will offer you. Aas we can see now. So the best advice would probably be to use the money required for the SSTR and book a database-management-course instead.

Happy landings,
max

[Propellerpilot]

Absolutely!

Just another thought about the key word catering: it seems very common practice to upload 0 catering for the crew and leave them with the leftover catering the clients did not care to eat. The argument is: why?, we pay you SNTs for that! Well many times you land when the shops are already closed or there are simply no shops close by to be reached. If you are unlucky you might be able to scavenge a handful leftover rice, a bit of the gravy sauce and a few leftover grapes for desert - and share it with the other two colleagues on board. And that after you've paid for all your education and training and possibly your SSTR.

Unless we put our foot down and say NO - they will continue to treat us like a bunch of rats. I know there are of course companies that differ.

[chimichanga]

I have made it to a position where I hire pilots and as I have never paid for a type rating (I have 7) I will not hire pilots that have or are willing to pay for the rating.

Hopefully the owner of your company doesn't read your post! lol

[Pilot Positive]

I am paying a fortune to put my kids through university, for example to become a vet! Nobody is going to help me pay for my kids qualification and if they don't have it they wont get the job.

Thats right Suitcaseman, nobody is going to help you pay for your kids education. Sorry. And no, they cant do the job they want to do without proper minimum qualification either. However you are not comparing apples with apples in your analogy.

Guys who go to OAA or CTC etc... are also paying for their initial training, just like you are paying for your kids education. However when your kids get into employment there is a fair chance they wont be asked to pay another £20K+ to become basic compliant with the new companies' equipment. Will they? In fact they will probably be earning as well...

Lets not confuse industry specific issues. The P2F scheme and SSTR is, at the costs asked, unique to aviation.

[B200Drvr]

We are our own worst enemies, a lot of the "pay your own rating" comes from pilots who have had their training paid for and packed their bags and moved on. A lot of you bleat on about never paying for ratings, but the simple fact is that a lot of companies are sick to death of paying for 3 or 4 pilots a year to do ratings and then moving on. Look after the pilots then, I hear you say!! Rubbish, we are like a bunch of Hookers always looking for the best deal. Most pilots bitch and moan about everything, some to the extent of Diva status when things go wrong. The fact is, if you have NEVER paid your own rating but have left a company before your agreed term of "payback" then you are the one who has caused this cancer and NOT the Guy who is now paying for his rating because of your "entitlement." Its a chain reaction and you always blame the last link!!! The company I work for will not fund ratings because we simply have no legal way to protect ourselves, and there are to many self serving pilots out there with no morals. We only have ourselves to blame!!

[Pilot Positive]

Superpilot - you'll be a super pilot one day...

I close this heartfelt response by challenging any chief pilot/recruiter to tell me I'm wrong about everything I say concerning low hours modular pilots and the reality that is the pilot recruitment scene in the UK today. We have no freaking way out due to lack of fair and equal assessment opportunities.

Yes, its a harsh reality of aviation that some operators only choose from the ab-initio pool. Does this guarantee a standard which reduces training risk? Some think it does - regardless of the reality. Is it worth buying a speculative TR to counter this? Probably not...

However, on the upside there are some operators who like modular guys (as long as they show some continuity of training and haven't done their basic license with 5 different schools!!) as they recognise the committment guys/gals like yourself have made. It demonstrates sincerity and will probably make you appreciate the hard route you have taken which in turn is likely to make you more of a productive pilot.

These are dark times, Superpilot but hang on in there. Keep at it, keep putting out the CVs, keep picking up the phone, keep building hours in whatever form you can get, keep current and above all keep your chin up mate. There's light at the end of the tunnel and something might just be on its way...

[Propellerpilot]

@B200Drvr - well my CV clearly proves that I have always fulfilled my part of the training bonds offered to me in the past, plus I have references. There is one company which typerated me in return for one years service where I eventually had some issues, however I still remained and endured for another extra year after fulfilling the commitment. If they would have offered me some more perspectives and motivation, I would probably still work for them today. There comes a time when to move on and in my case this was always in perfect order with the employer. I am quite concerned about my reputation in the industry, so I will do anything to keep it clean and stick to agreements.

It worked for me in the past and I sincerely believe it will work for me in the future and that the next TR bond will be offered to me, with the right company at the right time. I think it is also always a question of how we sell ourselves in form of an application (attractive CV), later in an interview or assessment. There are legal ways to set up a training bond scenario - anyone that leaves early, has to pay for the cost of the rating on a per rata basis. When signing a contract, both parties are signing a commitment to each other and both owe it to each other to fulfill the deal. This is the only way how to pave a healthy relationship.

Edit: and yes: if things become too crazy, quitting aviation is an option before falling into an endless pit. There are other fantastic things to do besides flying in life.

[Propellerpilot]

Yes - have to agree on that one. At the end everybody will go with what they think is right for themselves.