Cessna Thinks CE680 Pilots need more practise
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Cessna Thinks CE680 Pilots need more practise
Hence they have mandated no Coupled ILS approaches with Phase V equipped aircraft.........
So thats Launch I think Ph2
Then Ph3 when it was pretty much clear that Citation Shares were going to send them back to Cessna as not fit for purpose
Then Ph4 to stop the screens from going blank
Then Ph4.1 to get rid of the bugs they put in on Ph.4
The Ph 4.2 to sort it all out
Then Ph5 to get to where it should have been in 2004
And now no coupled ILS......
Honeywell you are a bunch of incompetent
's
No wonder Honeywell haven't graced a Cessna Cockpit since the Sovereign
So thats Launch I think Ph2
Then Ph3 when it was pretty much clear that Citation Shares were going to send them back to Cessna as not fit for purpose
Then Ph4 to stop the screens from going blank
Then Ph4.1 to get rid of the bugs they put in on Ph.4
The Ph 4.2 to sort it all out
Then Ph5 to get to where it should have been in 2004
And now no coupled ILS......
Honeywell you are a bunch of incompetent
'sNo wonder Honeywell haven't graced a Cessna Cockpit since the Sovereign
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Flight Safety in Kansas was the worst experience during the C680 training. Without the FMZ Series FMS pilot's Guide in the classroom and two red neck instructors was the perfect recipe of confusion.
Cannot say the same for the guys in Florida.
Cannot say the same for the guys in Florida.
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G-SPOT, exactly and I have already written some very pissed off emails to Mr.Honeywell and Mr.Cessna.
Thats the exact wording of Mr.Cessna:
Thats the exact wording of Mr.Cessna:
Cessna Sovereign - EPIC Phase 5 Alert
Cessna has received reports from several EPIC Phase 5 equipped Model 680 operators of a moderate rate autopilot nose down pitch command during autopilot coupled ILS approaches. These events have resulted in deviations below the glide slope. In all cases these events were readily arrested by the pilot using the control wheel autopilot disconnect button. Cessna is working closely with Honeywell to assess the issue and develop a solution. Until a solution is provided, Cessna recommends autopilot coupled ILS and LPV approaches not be conducted on Model 680 aircraft equipped with EPIC Phase 5. The vertical deviation display should be carefully monitored when conducting ILS and LPV approaches using flight director guidance. The flight director should be disregarded if there is disagreement between the flight director command and vertical deviation display is observed. This recommendation will be followed up with an AFM temporary change establishing this as a limitation.
Cessna has received reports from several EPIC Phase 5 equipped Model 680 operators of a moderate rate autopilot nose down pitch command during autopilot coupled ILS approaches. These events have resulted in deviations below the glide slope. In all cases these events were readily arrested by the pilot using the control wheel autopilot disconnect button. Cessna is working closely with Honeywell to assess the issue and develop a solution. Until a solution is provided, Cessna recommends autopilot coupled ILS and LPV approaches not be conducted on Model 680 aircraft equipped with EPIC Phase 5. The vertical deviation display should be carefully monitored when conducting ILS and LPV approaches using flight director guidance. The flight director should be disregarded if there is disagreement between the flight director command and vertical deviation display is observed. This recommendation will be followed up with an AFM temporary change establishing this as a limitation.
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Maybe we can hope for a Sovereign+ either with Proline 21 or my favorite Garmin 5000.
I have to say that I`m very disappointed in the integration of the Honeywell Epic suite in the Sovereign. When being used to airline(Airbus), it feels very unfinished and not user friendly, like Cessna trying to play with the big boys but not having the knowhow with regards to working with Honeywell integrating the Epic suite.
Avionics aside, The Sovereign is a great little workhorse, docile and forgiving,
with a cargo hold an envy of all Hawker pilots I have met.
I have to say that I`m very disappointed in the integration of the Honeywell Epic suite in the Sovereign. When being used to airline(Airbus), it feels very unfinished and not user friendly, like Cessna trying to play with the big boys but not having the knowhow with regards to working with Honeywell integrating the Epic suite.
Avionics aside, The Sovereign is a great little workhorse, docile and forgiving,
with a cargo hold an envy of all Hawker pilots I have met.
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with a cargo hold an envy of all Hawker pilots I have met.
with a cargo hold an envy of all Hawker pilots I have met.
A Tiger Moth has a cargo hold the envy of all Hawker pilots I have met!!
A Tiger Moth has a cargo hold the envy of all Hawker pilots I have met!!
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I have to say that I`m very disappointed in the integration of the Honeywell Epic suite in the Sovereign. When being used to airline(Airbus), it feels very unfinished and not user friendly, like Cessna trying to play with the big boys but not having the knowhow with regards to working with Honeywell integrating the Epic suite.
Now we wonder why the child canīt really walk. Cessna did that to keep costs down. Integration? What a joke. Compare the Challenger 300 with the P21 and dark cockpit philosophy with the Sov. Both developed roughly at the same time. The Sov is a dinosaur.
But then the coupled approach issue has nothing to do with that I think. Honeywell has to test these things and I guess they haven't done that very well. Phase V brought us some improvement and some troubles we never had before, e.g. we have to load the charts with the pcmcia card removed and then have to load the files from the CD directly onto the card...that wasnīt the case with 4.2.
Its high time for a Sov+ . Honeywell wonīt learn their lesson, the last 3,5 yaers on the Sovereign showed me that.
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Well this sounds like a bunch of guys needing to lean on a bunch of cockpit gear..
I can't think of any jet aircraft who's gear isn't up to the task...I mean the screens aren't going blank, and if the direct to function on your FMS gives you bug for the A/P to fly...what the heck is the problem.
That said...I have had mixed experiences from Flightsafety and much prefer Simuflite on Cessna gear.
I can't think of any jet aircraft who's gear isn't up to the task...I mean the screens aren't going blank, and if the direct to function on your FMS gives you bug for the A/P to fly...what the heck is the problem.
That said...I have had mixed experiences from Flightsafety and much prefer Simuflite on Cessna gear.
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In the meantime Honeywell had to withdraw HUNDREDS of procedures from the database because the airplanes would fly wrong turns on them.
I recently asked Team Sovereign when to expect the next update (5.2).
Heres what I got told:
-----
Phase 5.2 has been delayed a little due to a recently detected condition in Auto Preview mode where the aircraft will fly an approach that was previously entered into the data base. This can occur if there was no power cycle or the previous approach was not deleted. AFM Temporary Changes will be mailed shortly with recommendations to prevent this from occurring.
I do not have a list of all the corrections in 5.2 so I am not sure what will be corrected However, the corrections that I am aware of are:
· It will correct the deviation below the glideslope which will eliminate the autopilot off at 700 feet.
· FMS Turn Commands in Wrong Direction to make the shortest turn if the actual procedure is greater than 180 degrees.
· Auto Preview mentioned above
· MAU OTEMP corrected by raising the temperature threshold in the cabinets. This has been an issue especially in MAU # 1 with the Graphics Module for charts which runs hotter.
· Fluctuating Fuel Temperature noted on the EICAS screen.
We are currently testing the 5.2 software minus the Auto Preview and Fuel Temp corrections. Those will be provided as soon as possible. Testing the software that is available at this time will help shorten the certification process once the other corrections become available. Because of this latest development, Phase 5.2 software is now expected to become available before the end of the year.
-------
Note: the person writing this email did not mention the year. After the Phase 5 disaster I donīt think it will be before this years end...
I still freelance on a KingAir with an early romian empire radio stack and I get where I wanna get.
OTOH when my boss buys an airplane that is suppossed to have certain functions, then I expect to have them. As a little example I can tell you that we ordered the charts and maps option worth 75.000USD. I was promised that it will be available upon delivery and thus we cancelled the then available Universal Charts display option. When the airplane was delivered, there was a nice little sticker above the displays: use of charts and maps prohibited. It took almost a year to get the function.
Yes I can look at a paper approach plate, but when I buy it, I want it to work.
Regarding your DTO button on the FMS, try this in a Sovereign and you will sometimes get a nasty suprise. The airplane does not go directly to the selected waypoint, but calculates a point in front of you and turns only when it has reached this point. Sometimes this involves a slight turn in the wrong direction. Hardly the kind of behaviour youīd expect from a modern avionic suite.
There is plenty of other things the EPIC in the Sovereign does badly.
I recently asked Team Sovereign when to expect the next update (5.2).
Heres what I got told:
-----
Phase 5.2 has been delayed a little due to a recently detected condition in Auto Preview mode where the aircraft will fly an approach that was previously entered into the data base. This can occur if there was no power cycle or the previous approach was not deleted. AFM Temporary Changes will be mailed shortly with recommendations to prevent this from occurring.
I do not have a list of all the corrections in 5.2 so I am not sure what will be corrected However, the corrections that I am aware of are:
· It will correct the deviation below the glideslope which will eliminate the autopilot off at 700 feet.
· FMS Turn Commands in Wrong Direction to make the shortest turn if the actual procedure is greater than 180 degrees.
· Auto Preview mentioned above
· MAU OTEMP corrected by raising the temperature threshold in the cabinets. This has been an issue especially in MAU # 1 with the Graphics Module for charts which runs hotter.
· Fluctuating Fuel Temperature noted on the EICAS screen.
We are currently testing the 5.2 software minus the Auto Preview and Fuel Temp corrections. Those will be provided as soon as possible. Testing the software that is available at this time will help shorten the certification process once the other corrections become available. Because of this latest development, Phase 5.2 software is now expected to become available before the end of the year.
-------
Note: the person writing this email did not mention the year. After the Phase 5 disaster I donīt think it will be before this years end...
Well this sounds like a bunch of guys needing to lean on a bunch of cockpit gear..
OTOH when my boss buys an airplane that is suppossed to have certain functions, then I expect to have them. As a little example I can tell you that we ordered the charts and maps option worth 75.000USD. I was promised that it will be available upon delivery and thus we cancelled the then available Universal Charts display option. When the airplane was delivered, there was a nice little sticker above the displays: use of charts and maps prohibited. It took almost a year to get the function.
Yes I can look at a paper approach plate, but when I buy it, I want it to work.
Regarding your DTO button on the FMS, try this in a Sovereign and you will sometimes get a nasty suprise. The airplane does not go directly to the selected waypoint, but calculates a point in front of you and turns only when it has reached this point. Sometimes this involves a slight turn in the wrong direction. Hardly the kind of behaviour youīd expect from a modern avionic suite.
There is plenty of other things the EPIC in the Sovereign does badly.
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Well this sounds like a bunch of guys needing to lean on a bunch of cockpit gear..
I can't think of any jet aircraft who's gear isn't up to the task...I mean the screens aren't going blank,
I can't think of any jet aircraft who's gear isn't up to the task...I mean the screens aren't going blank,
Blank PFD's on 4 occasions, all un-recreateable, all fixed by themselves when airborne.
All described by Honeywell as a "Proton Event"......which means they haven't a clue incidentally.
and if the direct to function on your FMS gives you bug for the A/P to fly...what the heck is the problem.
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I suspect such heavily reliance on cockpit gear has now gotten to the point where it's bitting back.
So whats your suggestion? Fly VFR?
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I suspect such heavily reliance on cockpit gear has now gotten to the point where it's bitting back
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They canīt mean to target Sovereign drivers with the video.
If flying the Sov has thought me one thing, then its to check, recheck and recrossdoubleagaincheck what 'it' does.... the EPIC is...well I donīt like it at all.
Besides, 'slight' thread drift seems to be the understatement of the year.
If flying the Sov has thought me one thing, then its to check, recheck and recrossdoubleagaincheck what 'it' does.... the EPIC is...well I donīt like it at all.
Besides, 'slight' thread drift seems to be the understatement of the year.
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slight thread drift but relevant.....watch a video produced by american airlines called "children of the magenta".
I fail to see where this threads going - it was originally about Honeywells incompetence and Cessna allowing Honeywell to go in dry
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'children of the magenta' is the dirty little secret that the guys leaning so heavily on cockpit automation, don't want you to see.
There is a huge trend to take the pilot out of the equation in the cockpit, get the gear to do all the thinking for the pilots...unfortunately when the third back up FMS goes down, they have kittens.
There is a huge trend to take the pilot out of the equation in the cockpit, get the gear to do all the thinking for the pilots...unfortunately when the third back up FMS goes down, they have kittens.
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Whenrealityhurts...
This threads about Honeywell/Cessna and the operational issues operators are experiencing with the 680, if you want to discuss automation why not try to engage somebody on the dozen or so other threads about the subject.
Personally I'm happy for the aircraft to fly a coupled approach after 6:45 airborne in crap weather, 2 time zones away, in fact I'd argue its a great bit of airmanship to do so.
The fact that Phase V equipped aircraft cant do this currently is somewhat annoying. If an aircraft wasn't making performance, or wasn't making range due to a temporary ceiling cap, then Cessna would be working harder to sort the problem.
Judging by your comments you dont know 680's and you definetely don't know my operation
Children of the Magenta is a great video, never get tired of seeing it at each of the 15 or so yearly recurrents I've been on....its not a "dirty little secret" why you should think it is baffles me, in fact the catchphrase "Click Click" is used as an attention getter at our place.
So try and keep up, try to stay relevant and try to post something longer than one sentence, if you need a little longer to do so no problem....you take your time....
This threads about Honeywell/Cessna and the operational issues operators are experiencing with the 680, if you want to discuss automation why not try to engage somebody on the dozen or so other threads about the subject.
Personally I'm happy for the aircraft to fly a coupled approach after 6:45 airborne in crap weather, 2 time zones away, in fact I'd argue its a great bit of airmanship to do so.
The fact that Phase V equipped aircraft cant do this currently is somewhat annoying. If an aircraft wasn't making performance, or wasn't making range due to a temporary ceiling cap, then Cessna would be working harder to sort the problem.
Judging by your comments you dont know 680's and you definetely don't know my operation
Children of the Magenta is a great video, never get tired of seeing it at each of the 15 or so yearly recurrents I've been on....its not a "dirty little secret" why you should think it is baffles me, in fact the catchphrase "Click Click" is used as an attention getter at our place.
So try and keep up, try to stay relevant and try to post something longer than one sentence, if you need a little longer to do so no problem....you take your time....
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Good post G-spot
Let him him just troll around in his 400, I`ll take a Sovereign with all it`s faults any day. Funny how a 29 year old is telling pilots much senior to him how they are children of the magenta line. Don`t have any recollection of a magenta line in the old C-150s I did my private in, nor the Piper Apache I took my ATP in.
The Apache did however have a magenta colored velour interior.
The Apache did however have a magenta colored velour interior.
