Samedan LSZS mandatory briefing- what next?
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Samedan LSZS mandatory briefing- what next?
Not only do the Swiss charge a "kings ransom" for biz jets to use this awful and very dangerous airstrip but now they want you to sit down on a precious day off and answer 30 inane questions about the dump before you are allowed to carry on flying into it!
Why we need to be tested on the actual names of the villages around LSZS, why we need to answer what the telephone number is or the ATIS freq and other mundane info that is clearly on the jepp plate defeats me!! equally questions on light signals from the tower to a/c are included - give me a break, in 28 years of flying I have never recieved one and how can a AFIS be able to give these control signals anyway ??
Maybe if they want to improve safety then install some PAPIS and a "on field" DME and some FMS approach waypoints - that would be better than this stupid internet quiz
Getting into Samedan is often subject to a lot of client/ops pressure and it is essential to stay in command when things dont all stack up your way, our Chief Pilot loaths the place but we all have to go when our MD secures a charter.
LSZS is the latest dodgy/dangerous biz jet destination that makes you take CBT prior to landing(cannes & sion are others) and it all amounts to arse covering and a disrespect for proffesional flight crews, and before anybody asks - yes I passed
Why we need to be tested on the actual names of the villages around LSZS, why we need to answer what the telephone number is or the ATIS freq and other mundane info that is clearly on the jepp plate defeats me!! equally questions on light signals from the tower to a/c are included - give me a break, in 28 years of flying I have never recieved one and how can a AFIS be able to give these control signals anyway ??
Maybe if they want to improve safety then install some PAPIS and a "on field" DME and some FMS approach waypoints - that would be better than this stupid internet quiz
Getting into Samedan is often subject to a lot of client/ops pressure and it is essential to stay in command when things dont all stack up your way, our Chief Pilot loaths the place but we all have to go when our MD secures a charter.
LSZS is the latest dodgy/dangerous biz jet destination that makes you take CBT prior to landing(cannes & sion are others) and it all amounts to arse covering and a disrespect for proffesional flight crews, and before anybody asks - yes I passed
Last edited by hemel; 5th Jan 2011 at 13:06. Reason: .
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I quite agree. Far better to put in some proper aids to getting into the place than having to answer a string of banalities (not dissimilar to JAA written exams). Come to think of it, it sums European aviation up. As much irrelevant written rubbish as they can throw at you, with as little practical stuff as they can get away with.
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Hoops my friends...hoops. Now jump.
If pilots applied the basics, and stick to what is sensible, then the rest wouldn't have to jump through an ever increasing number of hoops, each time someone buys the farm in a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
If pilots applied the basics, and stick to what is sensible, then the rest wouldn't have to jump through an ever increasing number of hoops, each time someone buys the farm in a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
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LSZS is the latest dodgy/dangerous biz jet destination that makes you take CBT prior to landing(cannes & sion are others) and it all amounts to arse covering and a disrespect for proffesional flight crews
If pilots applied the basics, and stick to what is sensible, then the rest wouldn't have to jump through an ever increasing number of hoops, each time someone buys the farm in a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
We don´t know wether the flying joghurt cup was indeed servisable...
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"awful and very dangerous....."?!?!?! 
It is a VFR airfield. No need for navaids, no need for waypoints. If you go there in VMC it's a lovely place. In borderline weather or IMC it is indeed awful and dangerous.
I agree the quiz is ass-covering, however the place is anything but awful and dangerous. Some people flying there obviously are.
It is a VFR airfield. No need for navaids, no need for waypoints. If you go there in VMC it's a lovely place. In borderline weather or IMC it is indeed awful and dangerous.
I agree the quiz is ass-covering, however the place is anything but awful and dangerous. Some people flying there obviously are.
Switzerland empowers local communities to make their own decisions - a great system. I don't know the politics of Samedan, but maybe they just don't want a bunch of rich oiks flying into their nice valley in their bizjets, getting drunk, bringing in drugs, prostitutes etc which has ruined other nice valleys in the Alps. Maybe they also don't want visiting pilots insisting on speaking english on the r/t (thereby making it dangerous for the local pilots who may not speak english fluently).
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My post is of a more general nature, but if we dig up the list of previous mishaps at Samedan, you will find that there was often nothing wrong with the aircraft before it was destroyed.
Chain of events... if these guys were applying common sense, and not getting the aircraft into a place that their minds had not been in at least a few minutes before - even a serious emergency should have been within the realms of surviveability.
Chain of events... if these guys were applying common sense, and not getting the aircraft into a place that their minds had not been in at least a few minutes before - even a serious emergency should have been within the realms of surviveability.
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our Chief Pilot loaths the place but we all have to go when our MD secures a charter.
In our company only the people in the cockpit decide, depending on the actual circumstances, if they are going somewhere or not. Yes and we sometimes divert if we are of the opinion that it is safer to go to LSZR or LSZH.
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Samedan LSZS mandatory briefing- what next?
IMHO it was not a matter if problems would happen at Samedan but more when...
Now lets talk about a certain Swiss operator which was allowed to use thrust reverse in it's landing calculations and it's own procedures to be able to fly into an even smaller Swiss airport with an Excel.... Will FOCA look into this too or will all the foreign companies wear the brunt again. (like no cabotage rule after the previous accidant eventhough it was a swiss operated jet on a VP reg...
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INNflight,
'It is a VFR airfield. No need for navaids, no need for waypoints. If you go there in VMC it's a lovely place. In borderline weather or IMC it is indeed awful and dangerous.
I agree the quiz is ass-covering, however the place is anything but awful and dangerous. Some people flying there obviously are.'[/COLOR]
Well said, absolutely agree..... if you can not maintain VMC, go to Zurich.... if you can.... land! Simple!
There are far worse.... Sion for instance... a real sucker trap!
'It is a VFR airfield. No need for navaids, no need for waypoints. If you go there in VMC it's a lovely place. In borderline weather or IMC it is indeed awful and dangerous.
I agree the quiz is ass-covering, however the place is anything but awful and dangerous. Some people flying there obviously are.'[/COLOR]
Well said, absolutely agree..... if you can not maintain VMC, go to Zurich.... if you can.... land! Simple!
There are far worse.... Sion for instance... a real sucker trap!
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I Can agree with both sides of this argument. BUT the simple fact of matter is PAPIs or NAV aids wouldn't have helped either the Premier this year or the Falcon the previous. You can't move the airfield, or the mountains(although some think they can) If you go into Samedan its the same in a Cessna 172 or a BBJ (cant believe that youtube video), ALWAYS ALWAYS have a realistic escape route and if it feels wrong....probably is!
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Ok looks like we need to go down that path. Is the exam online or do you need to have an in-house training programme?
Cheers
Ugh found it, fair enough and passed it too.
Cheers
Ugh found it, fair enough and passed it too.
Last edited by #1AHRS; 8th Jan 2011 at 06:32.
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Next? With in-flight internet becoming popular they will soon put you in a hold somewhere and ask that every pilot does the quizz again before every approach. 
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I don't know the politics of Samedan, but maybe they just don't want a bunch of rich oiks flying into their nice valley in their bizjets, getting drunk, bringing in drugs, prostitutes etc which has ruined other nice valleys in the Alps.
BUT the simple fact of matter is PAPIs or NAV aids wouldn't have helped either the Premier this year or the Falcon the previous.
I agree with:
ALWAYS ALWAYS have a realistic escape route
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His Dudeness
Ok, I agree that the accident report for the Prem not out yet, and was being a little presumptuous, but comment was based on the crash site was not on finals. I was simply stating that in my limited experience flying into Samedan (20-30 times) there is no way I would have attempted to go in with the weather reported on either of the days of the accidents.....Who cares who is down the back.....Not worth MY OWN life!
Ok, I agree that the accident report for the Prem not out yet, and was being a little presumptuous, but comment was based on the crash site was not on finals. I was simply stating that in my limited experience flying into Samedan (20-30 times) there is no way I would have attempted to go in with the weather reported on either of the days of the accidents.....Who cares who is down the back.....Not worth MY OWN life!
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...there is no way I would have attempted to go in with the weather reported on either of the days of the accidents.....Who cares who is down the back.....Not worth MY OWN life!
OTOH I have been to LSZS with roughly the same wx report and found it (the wx) to be better than broadcasted.
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As to the question "what's coming next": A mandatory familiarization flight, as can be read here http://www.engadin-airport.ch/filead...ng_Samedan.pdf (german only)
CAA requested the airport to prepare a concept for conduction of such flights until 31JAN. Let's see what happens...
CAA requested the airport to prepare a concept for conduction of such flights until 31JAN. Let's see what happens...
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For those of us who don't read German (or even Swiss), what does it mean to those of us who are regular visitors?
I'm planning to be there next week, and the week after.....can I make a few bucks on the side doing familiarization rides?
I'm planning to be there next week, and the week after.....can I make a few bucks on the side doing familiarization rides?
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Pressure, Common Sense, Skill, Preparation
Samedan is a fine airport to fly into. Actually, the area chart for that airport, if interpreted conservatively, prescribes straight-in arrivals for jets from either direction. The depicted traffic pattern is marked single engine, if my memory serves me. So really anyone not familiar with the area, his or her aircraft turning characteristics, go-around and VFR-IFR communication procedures and mountain flying in general, should only proceed straight in IF he or she can see the runway from either Maloja or Zernez.
Of course there is pressure to land there eventhough conditions aren't ideal. The pressure comes from the cabin, possibly, or from the 'devil' within. Generally the cabin occupants place survival over convenience (avoiding the 2,5 hour drive). The inner devil is the real problem, usually seated in the left seat. Proper cockpit synergy and F.O. Empowerment to say "no" or "let's go over the go around procedure" or "I don't feel comfortable with this", before clearly stating, aloud "Go Around!!!" are key to avoiding mishaps in Samedan, and! Most importantly, everywhere else too.
A few years ago I trained on new heavier and slightly less manoeuverable type. I requested that the sim be positioned in that area and proceeded to fly over, into and around the area surrounding the Samedan airport. With the benefit of new GoogleEarth visuals, I found the training to be very useful. Not only was I able to observe the accuracy of the visual model, but could get a feel for my a/c performance.
Short of closing the airport no amount of paperwork and multiple choice will make flying here safer. Even airport specific training has questionable use once you incorporate questions of Recency.
However basic hand-flying skills and familiarity with mountain flying are critical if you intend to fly other than straight-in arrivals as depicted.
It would be sad if regulators resorted to misguided measures to accommodate the button-pushers vs training their sights on the need for a return to basics....as AF447 sadly suggests...although the final word is not out yet.
Thanks for reading
Of course there is pressure to land there eventhough conditions aren't ideal. The pressure comes from the cabin, possibly, or from the 'devil' within. Generally the cabin occupants place survival over convenience (avoiding the 2,5 hour drive). The inner devil is the real problem, usually seated in the left seat. Proper cockpit synergy and F.O. Empowerment to say "no" or "let's go over the go around procedure" or "I don't feel comfortable with this", before clearly stating, aloud "Go Around!!!" are key to avoiding mishaps in Samedan, and! Most importantly, everywhere else too.
A few years ago I trained on new heavier and slightly less manoeuverable type. I requested that the sim be positioned in that area and proceeded to fly over, into and around the area surrounding the Samedan airport. With the benefit of new GoogleEarth visuals, I found the training to be very useful. Not only was I able to observe the accuracy of the visual model, but could get a feel for my a/c performance.
Short of closing the airport no amount of paperwork and multiple choice will make flying here safer. Even airport specific training has questionable use once you incorporate questions of Recency.
However basic hand-flying skills and familiarity with mountain flying are critical if you intend to fly other than straight-in arrivals as depicted.
It would be sad if regulators resorted to misguided measures to accommodate the button-pushers vs training their sights on the need for a return to basics....as AF447 sadly suggests...although the final word is not out yet.
Thanks for reading
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Check your performance. Generally RWY03 is less restrictive than 21 for departures.
If you are there first time, I recommand to get the coordinates for MALOJA and ZERNEZ so you can insert them in your FMS, and to overfly the airport first before proceeding to either point.
Do not hesitate to give the FISO a phone call before your departure or while in flight, to get his feeling about the WX trend, if any doubt. These guys are pretty sharp and helpful.
Enjoy!
If you are there first time, I recommand to get the coordinates for MALOJA and ZERNEZ so you can insert them in your FMS, and to overfly the airport first before proceeding to either point.
Do not hesitate to give the FISO a phone call before your departure or while in flight, to get his feeling about the WX trend, if any doubt. These guys are pretty sharp and helpful.
Enjoy!
