Russian pilots to speak English
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 386
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dual language communication is not a safety issue as ATC never ever get anything wrong and Pilots never need to know what any other aircraft is doing ....ever
I have submitted 3 MORs at french airfields due to loss of situational awareness caused by ATC issuing critical information in French only. (eg, closure of our 2 diversion airfields, Orly and Beauvais, due to thunderstorm activity!!).
If French was the language of international aviation, that is the language I would use as I believe that flight safety overrides any jingoistic tendencies.
I have submitted 3 MORs at french airfields due to loss of situational awareness caused by ATC issuing critical information in French only. (eg, closure of our 2 diversion airfields, Orly and Beauvais, due to thunderstorm activity!!).
If French was the language of international aviation, that is the language I would use as I believe that flight safety overrides any jingoistic tendencies.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: new zealand
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well looks like there is going to be an even bigger shortage of pilots in russia when that comes in. The level of english in most companies is really questionable. I really dont know how AFL pilots manage to read those airbus manuals.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Willemstad, Curacao
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
cowboys straight from a eastwood movie
i dont doubt the safety aspect of 1 language atc. its the best. but i also agree on multi language atc and here is why.
ive noticed that on my little island, there are a lot of venezuelan GA traffic, these guys are cowboys straight from a eastwood movie.
if you dare to speak english to some of them, they will answer you in english, but in reality, they did not understand a bit of it, and won't comply to what they read back.
dont ask for examples, just use your imagination.
now, the atc notices this, and will instruct immediately in spanish, and then they do comply.
so in "many" cases, i've noticed that using more then 1 language improves safety.
i just wished that all pilots would care enough for this aspect and improve their language skills. meaning learn english.
and then for the english speaking ones, no harm in learning and understanding basics of other languages spoken in the country ure working in. not all obviously.
i speak 6 languages
ive noticed that on my little island, there are a lot of venezuelan GA traffic, these guys are cowboys straight from a eastwood movie.
if you dare to speak english to some of them, they will answer you in english, but in reality, they did not understand a bit of it, and won't comply to what they read back.
dont ask for examples, just use your imagination.
now, the atc notices this, and will instruct immediately in spanish, and then they do comply.
so in "many" cases, i've noticed that using more then 1 language improves safety.
i just wished that all pilots would care enough for this aspect and improve their language skills. meaning learn english.
and then for the english speaking ones, no harm in learning and understanding basics of other languages spoken in the country ure working in. not all obviously.
i speak 6 languages
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A contributing factor was an French speaking aircraft was cleared for t/o in french, while there was a runway entry/incursion on an intersection, on the same runway. This aircraft was not aware the conflicting aircraft was cleared for t/o..
I have submitted 3 MORs at french airfields due to loss of situational awareness caused by ATC issuing critical information in French only. (eg, closure of our 2 diversion airfields, Orly and Beauvais, due to thunderstorm activity!!).
I completely agree s_bakmeijer. Although it's definitely good news that Russian ATC will now be in English, I also think that many more flight crews could make some bigger effort in 'looking over the border' and 'thinking outside the box' by at least learning some catch phrases.
Isn't it peculiar that it's mostly the British and American pilots that get all excited about the bad level of English in France/Spain etc even when these pilots themselves don't speak a single word of French or Spanish?
I'm not that fluent in many languages as s_bakmeijer, yet I do try to think outside the box by trying to imagine what it would be like if we had to speak Spanish/French/Russian/Chines over the radio and how much we would struggle...
Here's a classic joke: "how do you call someone who speaks two languages?" Answer, bilingual. "How do you call someone who only speaks one language?" Answer, American/British.
Isn't it peculiar that it's mostly the British and American pilots that get all excited about the bad level of English in France/Spain etc even when these pilots themselves don't speak a single word of French or Spanish?
I'm not that fluent in many languages as s_bakmeijer, yet I do try to think outside the box by trying to imagine what it would be like if we had to speak Spanish/French/Russian/Chines over the radio and how much we would struggle...
Here's a classic joke: "how do you call someone who speaks two languages?" Answer, bilingual. "How do you call someone who only speaks one language?" Answer, American/British.
You are correct in your observation that it is usually the English speakers that almost act like drama queens by citing safety issues when flying in dual language airspace. This topic is continuously reappearing on pprune with the usual narrow-mind point of view. I have flown in dual-language environments where I did not understand the non-English language and I didn't feel my safety compromised in any way. Ask any other non-English native pilot who has done the same and none will act like those here on pprune. It's usually a favorite French bashing argument.
I can't understand how anyone can think that not being able to understand everything going on on the frequency would not impact situational awareness. I flew UHF only military aircraft for 16 years and was very frustrated at not knowing what was going on around me. I have flown in Central America and Europe and not been able to understand the Spanish or French. I have also spent A LOT of time flying in and out of ORD where I was really glad I understood all of what was being said.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You lose situational awareness because of a foreign language?
did not maintain sterile cockpit
Besides, how do you know that critical information was transmitted, if you do not understand French?
I have flown in dual-language environments where I did not understand the non-English language and I didn't feel my safety compromised in any way
a person only capable of speaking one language is a monoglot
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 20th Nov 2010 at 04:47.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: formally Alamo battleground, now the crocodile with palm trees!
Posts: 960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and I didn't ask you for your personal yet useless opinion. Maybe you should stick to national flying, if you get soooo scared. Your counter arguments are generic, overblown, baseless and indicate very little experience.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Age: 55
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone,
Explain me how pilots, even with their T-CAS equipment (range around 30 miles ?
), even with everyone speaking the same language can get any FULL situation awareness when the situation "spreads" over more than 150 miles around them, up to 30 planes on the same freq...
Controllers can be aware of a conflict more than 200 miles before the planes can even see each-other on their equipment.
I don't dare pretend being aware of the situation in the sectors next to mine, even though my colleagues speak the same language(s). That's why we need co-ordinations, whatever the language.
As I already said in other posts, I think my French colleagues and me are ready to speak only English on the freq (already the case more than 90% of the time in Brest ACC), but I don't foresee any improvement for pilot's awareness.
As for Russians speaking only English, I'm afraid the only result will be that some of the Russian pilots won't understand anymore (or as well) what they're requested for, as described by s_bakmeijer.
Hope not.
Lord Spandex Masher,
Could you imagine that maybe a vital information (which YOU are concerned about) would be transmitted to YOU in YOUR language ?
When you hear a controller screaming : "Immédiatement, tournez a gauche 30 degrés pour évitement, immédiatement, à gauche 30 degrés !", then you may consider this info is not for you.
When you hear : " Immediately, your callsign, turn left 30 degrees, avoiding action, immediately, your callsign, left 30 !", consider you are concerned.
You will get the traffic infos in YOUR language in a few seconds... However, as you were already aware of the situation, should I assume you already know why you've got to turn ?
Explain me how pilots, even with their T-CAS equipment (range around 30 miles ?
), even with everyone speaking the same language can get any FULL situation awareness when the situation "spreads" over more than 150 miles around them, up to 30 planes on the same freq... Controllers can be aware of a conflict more than 200 miles before the planes can even see each-other on their equipment.
I don't dare pretend being aware of the situation in the sectors next to mine, even though my colleagues speak the same language(s). That's why we need co-ordinations, whatever the language.
As I already said in other posts, I think my French colleagues and me are ready to speak only English on the freq (already the case more than 90% of the time in Brest ACC), but I don't foresee any improvement for pilot's awareness.
As for Russians speaking only English, I'm afraid the only result will be that some of the Russian pilots won't understand anymore (or as well) what they're requested for, as described by s_bakmeijer.
Hope not.
Lord Spandex Masher,
How would you know that you hadn't missed a vital piece of information if it was transmitted in a language that you did not understand? Don't bother actually because it'll be nonsense. I'll answer for you. YOU WOULDN'T.
When you hear a controller screaming : "Immédiatement, tournez a gauche 30 degrés pour évitement, immédiatement, à gauche 30 degrés !", then you may consider this info is not for you.
When you hear : " Immediately, your callsign, turn left 30 degrees, avoiding action, immediately, your callsign, left 30 !", consider you are concerned.
You will get the traffic infos in YOUR language in a few seconds... However, as you were already aware of the situation, should I assume you already know why you've got to turn ?
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All of my professional flying has been international. I, therefore, have a fairly good working knowledge of all the languages of all of the countries that I fly to and over. On many occasions I have had to translate what is going on for my F/O, ergo the F/O has less SA than I do, if nobody is able to translate then both the F/O and Captain have less SA than they could. Get it yet?
Also as I have such experience, and by no means am I the only one, I can see both sides of the argument.
BrATCO, of course I expect that. But, I have witnessed ATC, obviously stressed, attempt to transmit repeatedly to a non-national airline in his own language at high speed several times until the penny dropped and he transmitted in English. Then the message got through but...!
There are also many national airlines who employ non-national crew. Now you have a national airline callsign, usually using the national language, being spoken to, as is the habit, in the national language but with nobody on board who speaks it! Again................and the penny drops.
Not only that but even if you don't think the information is pertinent to me, and 99% of the time it may not be, it's still a little bit of gen I can store away and use if and when it becomes necessary.
There is only one solution to these problems - Chinese Mandarin, it is the most widely used language in the world.
Last edited by Lord Spandex Masher; 20th Nov 2010 at 13:10.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Caribbean
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look its like this. ATC should be in english. If they arent it is to you to request that information in english. If you think its unreasonable for you to ask 30 other planes that information in english... so do they. Afterall theyre there to work it out and its what they think. The Russians arent gonna speak english and the spanish arent and french arent and youll have to deal with it sorry! Safety first is what theyll say
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Lincs,UK
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A gentle reminder. It is the pilot community who chooses the language in which to communicate in - Not ATC. A pilot talks to ATC first in the language of their choice. Is it not therefore the pilot's community's choice on what represents a better working environment for SA and any other aspects one wants to derive from this?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Age: 55
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is only one solution to these problems - Chinese Mandarin, it is the most widely used language in the world.
Some companies use "surprising" languages sometimes : pilots from a Quebec company speak English or French, some "French" pilots (with a French national company's calsign) speak English, some "N" registrated speak French... depending on the crew's nationality, of course.
When it happens, we write a big "GB" or "F" on the strip.
This procedure won't be possible anymore when we change to e-stripping...
Just wait for it.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is only one solution to these problems - Chinese Mandarin, it is the most widely used language in the world.
You may be correct here, after all.
Hello also for Squawk7777...
I enjoy sometimes to communicate in some other then English language with ATC. And here is a question for French ATC.
I will put it in English somehow.
Why they do not come to SIMPLE way of saying the numbers,
(not at home but over RT)
Why they pronounce 132.985 as
( hundred and thirty two nine hundred four times twenty ten and sixteen)
cent trente-deux neuf cent quatre-vingt-quinze
Any New French Phraseology for Pilots coming from Montreal ?
(unite trois deux neuf huit cinq)
so much easier, right ?
Last edited by Green Guard; 21st Nov 2010 at 10:29.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Age: 55
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Green Guard,
In fact, we would say "Cent trente deux, neuf cent trente cinq" ("hundred and thirty-two, nine hundred and eighty-five") just because that's the way we speak "at home".
"Un trois deux, neuf huit cinq" (one tree two, nine eight five) sounds weird. But we may have to use it with frequencies like 130.235, which can be heard 132.135 in French.
English pilots do the same : they often forget they have to speak English phraseology, which is a bit different from English language.
"2" has to be pronounced "too"
"3" has to be pronounced "tree"
"5" has to be pronounced "fife"...
I often hear readbacks sounding like "One thee thee thee thee five" for 133.225 (or was that 122.225, or maybe 133.335, or...) with a perfect English accent...
In fact, we would say "Cent trente deux, neuf cent trente cinq" ("hundred and thirty-two, nine hundred and eighty-five") just because that's the way we speak "at home".
"Un trois deux, neuf huit cinq" (one tree two, nine eight five) sounds weird. But we may have to use it with frequencies like 130.235, which can be heard 132.135 in French.
English pilots do the same : they often forget they have to speak English phraseology, which is a bit different from English language.
"2" has to be pronounced "too"
"3" has to be pronounced "tree"
"5" has to be pronounced "fife"...
I often hear readbacks sounding like "One thee thee thee thee five" for 133.225 (or was that 122.225, or maybe 133.335, or...) with a perfect English accent...
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: France
Age: 55
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OOOps !
That must be the reason why my job is not at home... not easy to focus with the children around...
I assume this pilot will call back to confirm the freq...("neuf cent quatre-vingt cinq")
And you're right : I live in Brittany.
That must be the reason why my job is not at home... not easy to focus with the children around...
I assume this pilot will call back to confirm the freq...("neuf cent quatre-vingt cinq")
And you're right : I live in Brittany.
Last edited by BrATCO; 20th Nov 2010 at 20:20. Reason: children, not childs... I'll get them to bed !
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lord Spandex Masher
You say that Chinese Mandarin is the most widely used language in the world. Don't you really mean that it is the language spoken by the largest amount of people in the world? You don't hear the language much outside of China.
You say that Chinese Mandarin is the most widely used language in the world. Don't you really mean that it is the language spoken by the largest amount of people in the world? You don't hear the language much outside of China.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T21, indeed, I was only being facetious but thanks for pointing out my error.
Nothing is going to stop people using their own language whilst talking to people of their nationality. We'll just have to live with it.
BrATCO,
Esperez que vous avez recu les gamins au lit sans probleme.
Curiosity compels me to ask if Brittany is considered to be French or not?
Nothing is going to stop people using their own language whilst talking to people of their nationality. We'll just have to live with it.
BrATCO,
Esperez que vous avez recu les gamins au lit sans probleme.
Curiosity compels me to ask if Brittany is considered to be French or not?
