NJE calling back pilots?
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because firing Senior Pilots to bring back Junior ones with less Seniority will do great for the Netjets image in news paper and how to explained it to the owner that the most experience in the company have been replazced by Junior ones ...
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Some of us "junior" ones have more experience and hours than the "senior" ones. Please don't get me started on the relative merits and demerits of seniority again.
The world is not black and white my dear falconbis. More a funny shade of puce.
The world is not black and white my dear falconbis. More a funny shade of puce.
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Oh and whilst i'm waiting for my response on my earlier questions let me voice another opinion. The 100 euro complaint that skyshare has re BUPA is embarrasingly juvenile. In my situation the 100 euro and BUPA membership got my wife an operation very quickly which could well have been life threatening if she had to wait. Sit in a consulting room and have that conversation and see how quickly you get your money out!
Also maybe if a few less people hadn't got sunglasses out of BUPA we wouldn't have to pay anything!!
Also maybe if a few less people hadn't got sunglasses out of BUPA we wouldn't have to pay anything!!
Last edited by Impressive_Wingspan; 9th Aug 2010 at 13:27.
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I suppose thats the whole point of the union, to stop the same mistakes being repeated.
Are you speaking for the union in this matter or is this a personal viewpoint?
I'm not trying to be provocative, I want the facts. If dispensing with the ringfencing agreement is official union policy then why on earth would anyone who is on one of the schemes want anything to do with it? And in what way would my belief that the union is the senior crew ganging together against the junior in any way incorrect?
I hope to god that all this sparring turns out to be theoretical and that no further cuts are planned because if they are, the flight crew will be split right down the middle. I cannot really envisage the junior crew fighting for the right to be made redundant.
Would it fill you with confidence, as a JS who was saved, if non-ring fenced people were 'let go' and that when you are the senior guy and the company finds itself believing its own hype and over crewed by a third and your personal outgoings (suited to being a captain) are such that you can not afford to take a pay cut, so you dont, and then you find all the new arrivals taking an option and the story turns full circle
If it happens again? Probably will, the industry is cyclic and all the unions in the world cannot change that.
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NB
please don't think I am ganging up on you, which seems to be the way this thread is going, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Are you a member of skyshare? Have you asked the association's opinion on Jobshare/LTLOA and further redundancies? If you are not a member, have you tried emailing any of the board members to sound them out on this
Hope the shed rewiring went well!
MB
please don't think I am ganging up on you, which seems to be the way this thread is going, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Are you a member of skyshare? Have you asked the association's opinion on Jobshare/LTLOA and further redundancies? If you are not a member, have you tried emailing any of the board members to sound them out on this
Hope the shed rewiring went well!
MB
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On the issue of experience. I would put money on, that I have more experience than most on here. Whether it is relevant experience is anyone's guess. Suffice to say I was deemed unfit for interview each time I applied..
Looking back from my present position, boy have NJE done me a good turn.
Funny old world.
Looking back from my present position, boy have NJE done me a good turn.
Funny old world.
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@weido salt - yes so true, seems too much experience is rather unwanted in some companies, the reason being that pilots in your position have a choice not tolerate all the bs thrown at you because you can go and get a job almost anywhere you like.
They want people that will not question their way of running things even though it may be flawed. They might even regard you as a personal threat. So rather get guys they can manipulate by permanantly threatening their existence instead of their own.
They want people that will not question their way of running things even though it may be flawed. They might even regard you as a personal threat. So rather get guys they can manipulate by permanantly threatening their existence instead of their own.
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Wingspan,
My hammer is safely in the toolbox so relax.
BALPA represent pilots working for British companies (BRITISH airline pilots association). They would not be a lot of use or even be willing to get involved in a company registered in Portugal, owned by an American and with god knows how many different nationalities amongst the crew. I doubt the crew themselves would be too thrilled.
You are correct in that BALPA have professional negotiators separate from the crew and your other points are valid. (Not too sure about the Volvo, I'll have to scan the LOG again). I have no argument with BALPA as an organization I'm still a "country club" member in fact, my differences were with individual company councils and certain individuals on them. They are answerable (in theory at least) to the BALPA main board. Skyshare seem to be answerable to no one but themselves.Yes I know the members dictate the policy but who voted for the current board members? Anyhow I don't want to get into another unholy row. I wish them well even if they don't have very charitable feelings towards me. At the end of the day, tactical differences notwithstanding, we all want a successful company so that we all share the rewards that go with it. At least I hope so.
As to the legal cost question, well, that's down to them and their membership. You make your bed and lie in it. Lawyers do not as a rule come cheap and I bet BH have some pretty fancy ones.
My hammer is safely in the toolbox so relax.
BALPA represent pilots working for British companies (BRITISH airline pilots association). They would not be a lot of use or even be willing to get involved in a company registered in Portugal, owned by an American and with god knows how many different nationalities amongst the crew. I doubt the crew themselves would be too thrilled.
You are correct in that BALPA have professional negotiators separate from the crew and your other points are valid. (Not too sure about the Volvo, I'll have to scan the LOG again). I have no argument with BALPA as an organization I'm still a "country club" member in fact, my differences were with individual company councils and certain individuals on them. They are answerable (in theory at least) to the BALPA main board. Skyshare seem to be answerable to no one but themselves.Yes I know the members dictate the policy but who voted for the current board members? Anyhow I don't want to get into another unholy row. I wish them well even if they don't have very charitable feelings towards me. At the end of the day, tactical differences notwithstanding, we all want a successful company so that we all share the rewards that go with it. At least I hope so.
As to the legal cost question, well, that's down to them and their membership. You make your bed and lie in it. Lawyers do not as a rule come cheap and I bet BH have some pretty fancy ones.
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Impressive wingspan.
A few months ago, Net Jets Europe pilots had no union or association of pilots whatsoever. Now we do.
I don't really understand what your agenda is. You mention BALPA membership so I gather you are pro-union.
BALPA may well be better than SKYSHARE, but I can definately guarantee you that SKYSHARE is better than nothing. The company now is making an effort, or at least trying to appear like it, to listen to crew.
A while back, some effort was made to try and introduce BALPA or IPA to Net Jets. It was a failure.
I am shure that a very important part ( if not the most) of forming a union has been accomplished by SKYSHARE and the people in it's board whom have put themselves at risk and put in a lot of effort. This is to UNITE over 570 paid up crew and 670 total crew.
Not bad out of 940.....
It seems that OUTREACH "volunteer" candidates are a total of 8 crew..... Out of 940...... 8 volunteers for 6 seats.... No wonder some people supposedly received phone calls to "volunteer"....
Of these, it seems that 3 of them actually received phone calls from Upper Management in order to encourage them to "volunteer" themselves as candidates. Not very impressive stats or methods.
You may be right that eventually we will be better off with a big recognized union. But one thing is for sure, if everybody in SKYSHARE was as obstinate as you that the only way to do this is their way and via BALPA, then we would still be NOWHERE!!! At least now the company is trying to make it look like they actually care about our opinion.
We will see what happens, but im sure that we are much better off now than 6 months ago, and if in the end, if we can't handle it on our own and decide to become part of another union, we will already be a large group and it will be very different "knocking" on BALPA'S door as a group of 600 than again trying to rally up people to join directly and individually and getting absolutely nowhere.
I think that it is safe to say that most crew are tired of managers ( about 7 sets in 13 years ) doing what they feel like to benefit themselves and their short term objectives and ego's and then leaving. We care more about this company than they do. It is much more our company than theirs. We have worked for it longer and have made more sacrifices than them.
We have more to lose if things don't go well, and we are tired of new people that are always "smarter and more knowledgeable" than us, not listening to us or respecting our opinions.
A few months ago, Net Jets Europe pilots had no union or association of pilots whatsoever. Now we do.
I don't really understand what your agenda is. You mention BALPA membership so I gather you are pro-union.
BALPA may well be better than SKYSHARE, but I can definately guarantee you that SKYSHARE is better than nothing. The company now is making an effort, or at least trying to appear like it, to listen to crew.
A while back, some effort was made to try and introduce BALPA or IPA to Net Jets. It was a failure.
I am shure that a very important part ( if not the most) of forming a union has been accomplished by SKYSHARE and the people in it's board whom have put themselves at risk and put in a lot of effort. This is to UNITE over 570 paid up crew and 670 total crew.
Not bad out of 940.....
It seems that OUTREACH "volunteer" candidates are a total of 8 crew..... Out of 940...... 8 volunteers for 6 seats.... No wonder some people supposedly received phone calls to "volunteer"....
Of these, it seems that 3 of them actually received phone calls from Upper Management in order to encourage them to "volunteer" themselves as candidates. Not very impressive stats or methods.
You may be right that eventually we will be better off with a big recognized union. But one thing is for sure, if everybody in SKYSHARE was as obstinate as you that the only way to do this is their way and via BALPA, then we would still be NOWHERE!!! At least now the company is trying to make it look like they actually care about our opinion.
We will see what happens, but im sure that we are much better off now than 6 months ago, and if in the end, if we can't handle it on our own and decide to become part of another union, we will already be a large group and it will be very different "knocking" on BALPA'S door as a group of 600 than again trying to rally up people to join directly and individually and getting absolutely nowhere.
I think that it is safe to say that most crew are tired of managers ( about 7 sets in 13 years ) doing what they feel like to benefit themselves and their short term objectives and ego's and then leaving. We care more about this company than they do. It is much more our company than theirs. We have worked for it longer and have made more sacrifices than them.
We have more to lose if things don't go well, and we are tired of new people that are always "smarter and more knowledgeable" than us, not listening to us or respecting our opinions.
Last edited by suchiman; 19th Aug 2010 at 13:47.
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Hi IW,
May I ask you a simple question ?
Since you mention being next to TF on Monday night, why didn't you take the opportunity to talk to him directly and express your feelings. That might have been constructive and maybe make things improve for the better.
Looking forward to reading your reply.
Cheers
May I ask you a simple question ?
Since you mention being next to TF on Monday night, why didn't you take the opportunity to talk to him directly and express your feelings. That might have been constructive and maybe make things improve for the better.
Looking forward to reading your reply.
Cheers
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IPA or BALPA like SNPL etc its a waste of time and money, they ll do nothing for netjets members , they already told us in 2006 that their statuts can only protect UK citizen or UK resident...that s why skyshare have to move his own way , if skyshare need professionnal negociators with 600 member they can pay for the service , like they already have done it with law firm specialised in setting up Union..
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Definitely some funny business SC. The wingspan guy is entitled to pull his posts but it pretty much ruins the flow of the conversation - his last one was pretty factual -
But quite how he coerced a mod who has got nothing to do with this thread into closing it I don't know.
4HP
I can assure you i have no motives or agenda, however, handle it badly and act on poor or incorrect information and netjets will bury us as a union. I have had a private conversation with an individual who said the outreach program was designed to block a union. I think this itself shows either poor advice or lack of understanding of the UK system and options available. They don't need outreach to block us and i will tell you exactly how it will unfold, i've said this before and i'll say it again
1)Our newly formed union will approach Netjets for recognition identifying he proposed bargaining unit.
2) Netjets will reject the request but agree to negotiate further with ACAS help and there are 20 days to agree recognition. Skyshare (or the newly formed union) are duty bound to the 20 day period after which they are free to go to CAC and if you don't leave it 20 days you cannot go to CAC.
3) In the 20 day period Netjets will sign a voluntary agreement with another union thus blocking ours.
This type of Union avoidance was used in the 80s where trade unions sold themselves to the management. They may not even have any members! The intention was the most advantageous deal for management and worst terms and conditions for the staff.
That's when it will get expensive for which we currently have a limited budget.
You have to follow a set procedure and they will know how to wrong foot us, that is for sure.
1)Our newly formed union will approach Netjets for recognition identifying he proposed bargaining unit.
2) Netjets will reject the request but agree to negotiate further with ACAS help and there are 20 days to agree recognition. Skyshare (or the newly formed union) are duty bound to the 20 day period after which they are free to go to CAC and if you don't leave it 20 days you cannot go to CAC.
3) In the 20 day period Netjets will sign a voluntary agreement with another union thus blocking ours.
This type of Union avoidance was used in the 80s where trade unions sold themselves to the management. They may not even have any members! The intention was the most advantageous deal for management and worst terms and conditions for the staff.
That's when it will get expensive for which we currently have a limited budget.
You have to follow a set procedure and they will know how to wrong foot us, that is for sure.
4HP
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no
Waldi, I dont agree, its not the only and single method. Kids, additional income (pension), social items have to be considered! And by the way, why mngmt. shouldnt get rid frm low numbers, that are expensive?
Just an idea.
Just an idea.
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Last in, first out!
fair enough! or not!?
fair enough! or not!?
Fair enough or not!?
Open discussions please, not secret deals done behind closed doors.
Ok?
Last edited by northern boy; 28th Aug 2010 at 14:09. Reason: spelling
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I'm pretty much right at the bottom of the list - I would be pretty surprised by any further losses before the end of the voluntary schemes (although you paid your money and tooks your choice - the company did offer the more senior volunteers the choice of sticking with the option or business as usual while remaining ring-fenced ... pretty good deal) but I am a little concerned about what happens Aug 2013.
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Open discussions please, not secret deals done behind closed doors...
Hehehehe...!
And I am supposed to vote for someone on the strength of 150 characters that they write on a website?
So whats your motivation NB, to make sure you cut a deal for yourself?
Its laughable!
Please tell me, why should I or anyone for that matter vote for you?
I dont know you other than 150 characters from your statement on BD, I dont know your motives and what will you do when you put forward something and they say, 'ahm, thanks, we'll look into it and get back to you...'
What exactly will elected reps do?
Just chat about things in meetings and then those with authority to make decisions will say yes or no and it will have had nothig to do with Out but decided long before and dictated by whether NJ needs pilots or has too many.
Hehehehe...!
And I am supposed to vote for someone on the strength of 150 characters that they write on a website?
So whats your motivation NB, to make sure you cut a deal for yourself?
Its laughable!
Please tell me, why should I or anyone for that matter vote for you?
I dont know you other than 150 characters from your statement on BD, I dont know your motives and what will you do when you put forward something and they say, 'ahm, thanks, we'll look into it and get back to you...'
What exactly will elected reps do?
Just chat about things in meetings and then those with authority to make decisions will say yes or no and it will have had nothig to do with Out but decided long before and dictated by whether NJ needs pilots or has too many.
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Please tell me, why should I or anyone for that matter vote for you?
When did you have the chance to vote for the union board?
So whats your motivation NB, to make sure you cut a deal for yourself?
What exactly will elected reps do?
Its laughable!
I dont know you other than 150 characters from your statement on BD, I dont know your motives and what will you do when you put forward something and they say, 'ahm, thanks, we'll look into it and get back to you...
Just chat about things in meetings and then those with authority to make decisions will say yes or no and it will have had nothing to do with Out but decided long before and dictated by whether NJ needs pilots or has too many.
If you want legitimacy, try standing for election. Otherwise you are just sniping from the dark.