NJE calling back pilots?
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Seniority is the only fair way of running it but must be implemented at the very beginning. Ignoring seniority is the quickest and the most effective way at destroying moral I am aware of.
You don't see the large carrier crews squabbling like children in public do you? In the civil world seniority is a must. The most senior employees in a company need to have first crack at promotion etc..
I do however believe NJE have been very fair in the way they have handled the economic crisis as regards to surplus of crew by giving people at choice of JS, early retirement etc. . A lot of outfits could learn a real lesson from this.
Once a crew member has been made redundant, for whatever reason, the chances of them returning if given a choice will be very slim.
I have been the victim of "passover" and an ignorance of the seniority system.
You don't see the large carrier crews squabbling like children in public do you? In the civil world seniority is a must. The most senior employees in a company need to have first crack at promotion etc..
I do however believe NJE have been very fair in the way they have handled the economic crisis as regards to surplus of crew by giving people at choice of JS, early retirement etc. . A lot of outfits could learn a real lesson from this.
Once a crew member has been made redundant, for whatever reason, the chances of them returning if given a choice will be very slim.
I have been the victim of "passover" and an ignorance of the seniority system.
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Budget is covered for the 4 years, so nothing will happen until the end of the program, after that... who knows ?
If you are happy with our company, then say it , and do not moan on whatever this or that...
but feel free to join the "forum", question mark is which one ?
If you are happy with our company, then say it , and do not moan on whatever this or that...
but feel free to join the "forum", question mark is which one ?
Hello everyone (and northern boy in particular),
I think you will find that the curent members of Skyshare are made up of a cross-section of all NetJets pilots. That includes F/Os on job share.
To be honest, I am surprised you bring up seniority. We have had a seniority based carreer progression policy for years. Because that's what a majority wants. Skyshare does not need to introduce seniority because it is already in place.
I am afraid you are falling into the "divide and conquer" trap by management. Creating fear is a well known union busting technique.
Skyshare is what we all make of it. It is democratic. There are anual elections and everyone is invited to join and make their voice heard.
We are not trying to harm the business. Why would we want to bite the hand that feeds us? Without wanting to go into details on a public forum I just want to remind you that senior management has been replaced every couple of years or so and is as such mainly interested in short term results and the associated bonusses. We however would like to stick around for a while so we will act responsibly and not risk any jobs with our actions.
I fail to see the connection between potential future job losses and the creation of a union. Anything the union does will have to be backed by a majority of it's memebers. And the US have had a union for many years. That didn's scare away the owners and hasn't stopped investments in the business.
If you go to www.skyshare.eu and read the intro text and the Q&As I think it will be hard to disagree with those statements.
Remember, we have tried to establish a dialogue through Skyshare but that has been rejected by management. Instead they offer a management controlled forum that meets 4 times a year to discuss the issues that management want to discuss. Rememeber, they have unilaterally changed our terms and condition in the past and without a collective agreemet to protect the status quo, nothing stops them from doing it again.
Let's not turn this into an old-farts vs. new-joiners conflict. We are all in it together.
I think you will find that the curent members of Skyshare are made up of a cross-section of all NetJets pilots. That includes F/Os on job share.
To be honest, I am surprised you bring up seniority. We have had a seniority based carreer progression policy for years. Because that's what a majority wants. Skyshare does not need to introduce seniority because it is already in place.
I am afraid you are falling into the "divide and conquer" trap by management. Creating fear is a well known union busting technique.
Skyshare is what we all make of it. It is democratic. There are anual elections and everyone is invited to join and make their voice heard.
We are not trying to harm the business. Why would we want to bite the hand that feeds us? Without wanting to go into details on a public forum I just want to remind you that senior management has been replaced every couple of years or so and is as such mainly interested in short term results and the associated bonusses. We however would like to stick around for a while so we will act responsibly and not risk any jobs with our actions.
I fail to see the connection between potential future job losses and the creation of a union. Anything the union does will have to be backed by a majority of it's memebers. And the US have had a union for many years. That didn's scare away the owners and hasn't stopped investments in the business.
If you go to www.skyshare.eu and read the intro text and the Q&As I think it will be hard to disagree with those statements.
Remember, we have tried to establish a dialogue through Skyshare but that has been rejected by management. Instead they offer a management controlled forum that meets 4 times a year to discuss the issues that management want to discuss. Rememeber, they have unilaterally changed our terms and condition in the past and without a collective agreemet to protect the status quo, nothing stops them from doing it again.
Let's not turn this into an old-farts vs. new-joiners conflict. We are all in it together.
Last edited by 733driver; 5th Aug 2010 at 17:28.
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Seniority is the only fair way of running it but must be implemented at the very beginning.
It's easy to support something and insist it is imposed on others when it will not affect you due to your good fortune in joining at the right time.
That is hypocrisy. I have said it before and I will keep saying it.
I will not be dictated to by people like that.
Ignoring seniority is the quickest and the most effective way at destroying moral I am aware of.
I'm afraid that Skyshare or whatever they call themselves will have to do a lot more to convince me that their way is the right way. And no, I am not management, in the pay of management or in the habit of taking warm showers on cool evenings with management. I just need to be sure I am not being taken for a mug. Again.
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northernboy,
I understand that you speak from bitter experience and are therefore doubtful about any union. However, I believe that unions as such are neither good nor bad - they all depend on the people running them. If you'd just have a quick look at what is said at the skyshare forum and in the FAQ, you'd quickly realise that some down-to-earth, cool-headed people are leading skyshare at the moment. Also, there are some open-minded discussions going on.
Also, I'd like to tell you about my experience coming from a small, non-unionised airline. We had to endure what were probably the worst working conditions in the industry. If you were not dancing to the management's tune, you could basically forget about promotions. From time to time, there would be some guys (usually direct entry captains, who were hired despite the fact that there were some good F/Os ready to be upgraded) who said that they didn't need an union and that they could stand up for their own rights. They usually left the company after about 12 months, usually quite frustrated when even the most reasonable requests weren't met.
Alone, you are nothing else but an employee who can be quickly replaced. Only as a group you have the power to be heard and make changes. Right now, for the first time in a year (or more), the management starts to listen. This is the first success of skyshare.
So, what will it be for you? What will you say when, for example, they offer you a "new deal" for your upgrading with a reduced entry salary for captains? What will you say when our working conditions continue to deteriorate?
Why not give skyshare a chance - if there is something you don't like, you can always leave.
Cpt,
speaking from the end of the seniority list
I understand that you speak from bitter experience and are therefore doubtful about any union. However, I believe that unions as such are neither good nor bad - they all depend on the people running them. If you'd just have a quick look at what is said at the skyshare forum and in the FAQ, you'd quickly realise that some down-to-earth, cool-headed people are leading skyshare at the moment. Also, there are some open-minded discussions going on.
Also, I'd like to tell you about my experience coming from a small, non-unionised airline. We had to endure what were probably the worst working conditions in the industry. If you were not dancing to the management's tune, you could basically forget about promotions. From time to time, there would be some guys (usually direct entry captains, who were hired despite the fact that there were some good F/Os ready to be upgraded) who said that they didn't need an union and that they could stand up for their own rights. They usually left the company after about 12 months, usually quite frustrated when even the most reasonable requests weren't met.
Alone, you are nothing else but an employee who can be quickly replaced. Only as a group you have the power to be heard and make changes. Right now, for the first time in a year (or more), the management starts to listen. This is the first success of skyshare.
So, what will it be for you? What will you say when, for example, they offer you a "new deal" for your upgrading with a reduced entry salary for captains? What will you say when our working conditions continue to deteriorate?
Why not give skyshare a chance - if there is something you don't like, you can always leave.
Cpt,
speaking from the end of the seniority list
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I joined late and am now stuck as an FO on JS.
This is not my colleague's fault, it is what happened. I should have joined earlier, I didn't. That is my fault, perhaps I should have stayed where I was but even on JS as an FO, my family & I are happier with me at NJE.
The guys with a low seniority number who joined before me have been at NJE longer. That's a fact, not something they should be sorry for. My colleagues do not owe me anything for taking JS.
If you want to buy me a beer, I'll drink it if I am in hours to do so.
This is not my colleague's fault, it is what happened. I should have joined earlier, I didn't. That is my fault, perhaps I should have stayed where I was but even on JS as an FO, my family & I are happier with me at NJE.
The guys with a low seniority number who joined before me have been at NJE longer. That's a fact, not something they should be sorry for. My colleagues do not owe me anything for taking JS.
If you want to buy me a beer, I'll drink it if I am in hours to do so.
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OK gents, It would appear that I am a lone voice in the wilderness. Nothing new there then.
The ballot is now upon us. You vote your way and I will vote mine. I may be a bitter, nasty old thing but I do believe in democracy. Whatever the outcome, so be it. Personally I think a vote for the union will result in the company ejecting teddy from the pram and a couple of hundred pilots up the road. In which event you won't have to listen to my twisted rantings any more.
I only hope for your sake that it doesn't backfire and blow up in your faces. For those who are happy to accept their lot in life, I wish that I had your stoic attitude. Maybe it's because I am running out of years and I am raging against the dying of the light, to misquote someone more poetic than me.
Whatever. Good luck. I sincerely hope that fate and lady luck does not urinate upon the rest of you from the same lofty height as it has on me.
The ballot is now upon us. You vote your way and I will vote mine. I may be a bitter, nasty old thing but I do believe in democracy. Whatever the outcome, so be it. Personally I think a vote for the union will result in the company ejecting teddy from the pram and a couple of hundred pilots up the road. In which event you won't have to listen to my twisted rantings any more.
I only hope for your sake that it doesn't backfire and blow up in your faces. For those who are happy to accept their lot in life, I wish that I had your stoic attitude. Maybe it's because I am running out of years and I am raging against the dying of the light, to misquote someone more poetic than me.
Whatever. Good luck. I sincerely hope that fate and lady luck does not urinate upon the rest of you from the same lofty height as it has on me.
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NB
I know exactly where you are coming from and you have my every sympathy.
Remember every dog has their day, so hang on in there. Never too old and there is always someone worse off than us. You have a job and your health so that is your greatest asset.
If you help the union you may help others avoid the nasty mauling you appear to have been exposed too, by the unscrupulous.
I know exactly where you are coming from and you have my every sympathy.
Remember every dog has their day, so hang on in there. Never too old and there is always someone worse off than us. You have a job and your health so that is your greatest asset.
If you help the union you may help others avoid the nasty mauling you appear to have been exposed too, by the unscrupulous.
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The JS is too expensive and there is not such a good and rapid recovery as was forcasted last year.
NJE will probably get rid of surplus of pilots.
You are every day loosing some benefits, a union would have at least protected the benefits.
A union should have been implemented a couple of years ago.
NJE will probably get rid of surplus of pilots.
You are every day loosing some benefits, a union would have at least protected the benefits.
A union should have been implemented a couple of years ago.
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The JS is too expensive and there is not such a good and rapid recovery as was forcasted last year.
NJE will probably get rid of surplus of pilots.
NJE will probably get rid of surplus of pilots.
Any attempt to renege on the agreement would make for "interesting " times ahead. Although it would be no more than I would expect.
I wonder if the putative union would fight to protect the scheme? Makes a bit of a mockery of the sacred LIFO doesn't it?
This could get very interesting
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I guess you wont have a say in it anyway since you say you wont join the putative union.
IMHO all the eventualities will have been planned for by those who are paid to do such things. I sincerely hope no-one looses their job but I would be very reluctant to put money on it.
As I said, interesting times.
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At least one is an experienced negociator in the airline Industry.
Fortunately, as legal fees are concerned, Skyshare has the back up of one of the most experienced player in the industry, for a fee that would not hurt anyone, except the other side if they knew it..LoL
My feelings are mixed upon the fact that SEA is going UK union within days now. I would have hoped that the management would have recognize the association at once instead of playing the time game. At the end of the day, even if SEA has to go the long way round ( it has the power, commitment, number of adherents, etc..), it will be the Netjets Europe Flight Crew union and bargaining partner.
I believe that was a written story, that had numerous false starts on the last 10 years, but now it is launched.
But nobody is blind, like NB was saying ( but with a biaised view); IF Netjets needs to adjust again the number of crews; this will be done with or without the union. The easiest path of communication is of course to hold the Association responsible for it, even if its existence is nowhere related to such an event. No union ever had stopped lay-offs, merely negociated opt-outs or some perks.
Let us hope that the situation will stay as it is today, or even better improve during the second half; and see what will happen in October...
Only people whom are not trying are not failing..
Fortunately, as legal fees are concerned, Skyshare has the back up of one of the most experienced player in the industry, for a fee that would not hurt anyone, except the other side if they knew it..LoL
My feelings are mixed upon the fact that SEA is going UK union within days now. I would have hoped that the management would have recognize the association at once instead of playing the time game. At the end of the day, even if SEA has to go the long way round ( it has the power, commitment, number of adherents, etc..), it will be the Netjets Europe Flight Crew union and bargaining partner.
I believe that was a written story, that had numerous false starts on the last 10 years, but now it is launched.
But nobody is blind, like NB was saying ( but with a biaised view); IF Netjets needs to adjust again the number of crews; this will be done with or without the union. The easiest path of communication is of course to hold the Association responsible for it, even if its existence is nowhere related to such an event. No union ever had stopped lay-offs, merely negociated opt-outs or some perks.
Let us hope that the situation will stay as it is today, or even better improve during the second half; and see what will happen in October...
Only people whom are not trying are not failing..
Impressive Wingspan,
At least three of the current board of directors are not doing this for the first time.
I agree it' a bit of a David vs Goliath sitation but they seem to be taking us serious enough, huh?
At least three of the current board of directors are not doing this for the first time.
I agree it' a bit of a David vs Goliath sitation but they seem to be taking us serious enough, huh?
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No union ever had stopped lay-offs, merely negociated opt-outs or some perks.
I'm not blindly anti union as some seem to think, I'm just very cautious and on the cynical side having witnessed human nature under conditions of stress in the past. The results are not, as a general rule, pretty.
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Netjets attitude trigger the Unionisation , Skyshare association represent 667 Pilots and FA and still growing after the last letter of EC..
the refusal to talk to Skyshare was surprising, as the bord request was only a status quo on T&C and the respect of our contract sign by both party at hiring...today this contract still exist but lots of T&C are not applied ..
the last Pension joke finished the work after a long 3 years of await plan.
the workforce lost trust in the company and trust in this short term upper manager just here to make the numbers on spread sheet acceptable for share holder at our depend. but most importantly and that s were is the concern at the depend of the customers..
Skyshare members are interested in the long term prosperous future of Netjets , EC and DS are interested by their Bonus after 2 years..in which state the company will be after they desapeared ? so skyshare have been force to turn into a Union to force reconition and engage constructive dialogue, surprinsingly Skyshare doesn t seek for better T&C but want only the actual T&C change by mutual agreement of both party .
Now the game is ON Netjets use all the Union burst technics and agency available in US and UK to scare the crew they even send letter to all crew at their home address asking if there are in favor of the Union and member of it in a North Korean style , they do every right move to pist off the crew and after each communication from Management more crew are joining Skyshare.
It a pitty to see how a good Company with such high crew spirit willing to do so much for the company managed in 2 years to get the vast majority of his internationnal workforce against her !!
quite an achievement isn t ?
the refusal to talk to Skyshare was surprising, as the bord request was only a status quo on T&C and the respect of our contract sign by both party at hiring...today this contract still exist but lots of T&C are not applied ..
the last Pension joke finished the work after a long 3 years of await plan.
the workforce lost trust in the company and trust in this short term upper manager just here to make the numbers on spread sheet acceptable for share holder at our depend. but most importantly and that s were is the concern at the depend of the customers..
Skyshare members are interested in the long term prosperous future of Netjets , EC and DS are interested by their Bonus after 2 years..in which state the company will be after they desapeared ? so skyshare have been force to turn into a Union to force reconition and engage constructive dialogue, surprinsingly Skyshare doesn t seek for better T&C but want only the actual T&C change by mutual agreement of both party .
Now the game is ON Netjets use all the Union burst technics and agency available in US and UK to scare the crew they even send letter to all crew at their home address asking if there are in favor of the Union and member of it in a North Korean style , they do every right move to pist off the crew and after each communication from Management more crew are joining Skyshare.
It a pitty to see how a good Company with such high crew spirit willing to do so much for the company managed in 2 years to get the vast majority of his internationnal workforce against her !!
quite an achievement isn t ?
Last edited by falconbis; 9th Aug 2010 at 12:06.
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@ Northdern Boy
If you are worried about JS then you better join skyshare and voice your concern, but frankly did you really believe that Netjets will fire senior crew and recall JS junior crew to replace them with associate training cost..and the legality issue that it will trigger in UK !! Seriously , they will claim that this was done by a different management, that those clauses are not legaly sustainable and if you need more example on how they respect your contract here is just a few among a long list:
eg ;you contract said Free Medical , now its 100 euros by Members of the familly
eg;email from HR director stating about the company match money scheme will be apply during the intermediate pension plan, now it denied and 100 plus joint crew take the company to court about it .
eg; bidding for fleet change is base on seniority etc, last fleet change for Falcon 2000 decided unilateraly by Management from H400 and CE55o crew only...thanks for the one with higher seniority on other fleet and still waiting ..
eg; crew bonus shall be paid every year Netjets will be profitable at first euro, last MW email state that crew bonus CPS will not be paid even so we are on track to be profitable as we have not been profitable every month of the year...
So i won t keep my hope high on this JS ring fence matter !
If you are worried about JS then you better join skyshare and voice your concern, but frankly did you really believe that Netjets will fire senior crew and recall JS junior crew to replace them with associate training cost..and the legality issue that it will trigger in UK !! Seriously , they will claim that this was done by a different management, that those clauses are not legaly sustainable and if you need more example on how they respect your contract here is just a few among a long list:
eg ;you contract said Free Medical , now its 100 euros by Members of the familly
eg;email from HR director stating about the company match money scheme will be apply during the intermediate pension plan, now it denied and 100 plus joint crew take the company to court about it .
eg; bidding for fleet change is base on seniority etc, last fleet change for Falcon 2000 decided unilateraly by Management from H400 and CE55o crew only...thanks for the one with higher seniority on other fleet and still waiting ..
eg; crew bonus shall be paid every year Netjets will be profitable at first euro, last MW email state that crew bonus CPS will not be paid even so we are on track to be profitable as we have not been profitable every month of the year...
So i won t keep my hope high on this JS ring fence matter !
Last edited by falconbis; 9th Aug 2010 at 11:45.
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I would have thought someone who has been badly affected by such things previously would want to make sure their voice was heard and they were part of pushing the union in the direction they wanted rather than leaving it to others.
Imagine your worst nightmare came true and the union voted in favour of selling out the people on JS,
but frankly did you really believe that Netjets will fire senior crew and recall JS junior crew to replace them with associate training cost..and the legality issue that it will trigger in UK !! Seriously , they will claim that this was done by a different management, that those clauses are not legaly sustainable
I would imagine tearing up a signed contract as was issued to JS/LTLOA volunteers would trigger a few legal problems by itself. As far as the UK goes I would have to ask a lawyer for the fine details but if you have a contract signed by the company, present management or not, that guarantees protection from redundancy for a fixed period then the company would be liable for breach of contract if it then made you redundant. The only way around it would be to dissolve the company on Friday and start all over again on the Monday with a new company and set of rules. (Which may of course be the plan.)
Probably outweigh the cost of retraining and as NJ's parent company own the training organization in the first place.....
If option 2 is to be adopted then how on earth would you expect those affected to offer themselves up willingly for sacrifice and pay 55 euros for the privilege?
I really do think that the plans for further cuts, should they be needed, are already in place and that the workforce or their representatives will have little or no say in it. Breaking a written contract , affecting 300 odd employees would have a far greater long term impact than redundancy for those who chose not or did not need to "volunteer" , in the full knowledge that they would not have protection should further cuts be needed.
There are already two different points of view here. Not easy is it?
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whish i could still be that naive ...no offence
The pension plan costs money. Delaying or messing around with it it saves a few euros at the cost of annoying people.
Breaking the terms of employment contracts will cost a lot more and does even less for the reputation of a company that one day might even be looking for crew again. Such an action would cause longer and deeper bad feeling and publicity than faffing around with benefits to those still lucky enough to be in employment after the dust settles. The ring fencing was made perfectly plain at the time the options were announced.
Just my opinion.