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Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

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Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

Old 14th May 2010, 09:26
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Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

How does one get into corporate aviation in the UK. It seems this industry is so tight knit and insular, and I bet this must be breeching employment laws. Nearly every company you approach says that they’re fully complimented with staff, but never seem to advertise anywhere when they need crews, and if you look at the employee make up, it’s predominantly ‘white and middleclass' A friend of mine working for one of these companies, mentioned to me that management once told her to keep it as white British as possible when doing her recruitment. I’m not saying that this is true everywhere, but this was the case at her company and for obvious reasons I cannot name. With the big Airlines, this is slightly different when hiring. Anyone care to comment?
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Old 14th May 2010, 09:53
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Honestly, I think hiring in the corporate aviation world is based on two things:
1. Are you experienced and Type Rated in the jet they operate (this is obviously a lower training cost for the company).
2. Do you know somebody personally at the company that you can use as a reference.

If we examined the racial mix of corporate pilots in the UK or the EU, then there are probably more white guys than non-white guys flying aircraft, simply because there are more white corporate pilots in Europe.

If you went to the Phillipines would you not expect to see more Phillipino taxi drivers than white British taxi drivers?

If you went to Bolivia, would you not tend to see more Bolivian farmers than white farmers?

Then again, I don't even know why I am writing because your post seems written specifically to annoy and irritate.

Best of luck.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:26
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Equine excrement comes a close second.
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:33
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ParisJet.

I came into flying from car racing many moons ago. I can remember then (and nothing much has changed since) how rare a black race driver was.

At those levels of racing it was not particulary a rich mans sport as most of us relied on sponsorship or fund raising to keep going so I never felt it was a wealth Issue between different colours. The majority were mostly ordinary working people who raced especially in formula ford.

In the same sense there appear to be few black pilots (and I expect that is who you are referring to) although there are many other "coloured" pilots who are not white or black.

I like multi cultural societies and would equally love to see more pilots from every ethnic background. Why there appear to be so few who knows but I for one would be horrified if your suggestions were true??? I do not believe that anyone is held out because of the colour of their skin. It would be an offence especially in Europe if that was proved to be true.

The only reason I responded is that I had noted that imbalance too in motor racing and flying but dont for one minute think its due to descrimination.

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 14th May 2010 at 13:40.
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Old 14th May 2010, 13:39
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Uncle Wiggily: I know the demographics in europe do reflect the reason why there are more white Pilots than blacks or asian. However there are quite a few black and asian pilots about, and quite a few are colleagues. All have tried the corporate route with no luck, some were type rated, some willing to pay their rating. My point is if you look at the employees in Corporate aviation, the majority if not all are white at every level.

My other point is hiring shouldn't be based on who you know to get the job, that's prejudiced in itself, it should be an even playing field where all applying regardless of race colour or creed should have the same opportunities. Colleagues of mine in the States weren't happy with the 'quotas ruling' whereby for example if an airline was hiring 10 Pilots, the intake had to reflect demographics of society, so 3 would be ethnic, 3 women, then 4 causian males. The caucasian males were always complaining that it was an exercise to meet quotas and disregard of quality. This really used to annoy me as that was not the case. It was done to balance things out, but with quality candidates.This is now what is happening with South African Airlines, where it was majority white crews, and now concentration in on hiring black crews and upgrades for black crews over whites. There's uproar out there and this is what causes problems for all budding Pilots, due to unfair practices. If for example watchdog or some sort of employment body did documentary on it, you'll find I'm right.

Lastly, if I launched a Bizjet company and only hired black and asian pilots I believe you'd make a huge stink about it, especially if not one of 10 black pilots was white.
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Old 14th May 2010, 13:58
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Pace: If a lot of people thought like you, we wouldn't be here, but what I was stating is from what I've seen and what my colleague told me with regards to the company she works for. Obviously it won't be the case everywhere.

If the quotas system began here I think there'd be uproar. I don't agree with it, but it was enforced in America for these reasons. Companies should be proactively encouraging ethnic minorities to this industry. A lot of black people in this country are in a financial bracket which prohibits them from entering this vocation. I know this for a fact as I've talked at schools where a lot of kids from ethnic minorities want to fly, and are academically capable of achieving this but lack the funds to do so, where as most middle class white kids, have the financial capability or should I say parents to support them all the way through. This is partly the reason for there being such a class/race divide when it comes to aviation and more so in corporate aviation.
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Old 14th May 2010, 13:59
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My other point is hiring shouldn't be based on who you know to get the job, that's prejudiced in itself
ParisJet

I presume by the fact that you are from Africa and your posting above that you are dark skinned rather that light skinned?

You will find regardless of skin colour that especially in corporate aviation networking is very important and getting your face known and liked is important regardless of what tone it is

I noted on your profile and previous postings that you hold a CPL and not an ATPL and I guess only an FAA licence?
Is that correct?

regardless it is very hard out there at present on the flying job market and you may find you are competing against overqualified pilots for certain positions.

Only you can answer that!

Parisjet just read your above posting which was posted at the same time as mine. I was talking about people who live in Europe of different coloured skin.

Africa! my heart goes out for you as it would be almost impossible to finance yourself into aviation, I have PMd you if any good PM me back!

Good luck

Pace

Last edited by Pace; 14th May 2010 at 14:46.
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Old 15th May 2010, 07:08
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Maybe you should focus more on networking and less on being brown or black or whatever the hell the correct word is this week.

I take exception to the fact that you claim I got my job because I am caucasian and middleclass - I am both! I am also a highly likable guy, which should be a apparent by now. I got my job for that very reason via network and a recommendation. I suggest you try the same, suggesting that someone should hire based on skincolor you is plain racism.

Are you a racist?
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Old 15th May 2010, 07:55
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Quotas are never going to work for flight crew - the proportion of female pilots is vanishingly small and, I suspect, similar for non-whites. That's just how it is.

Non-airline flying is "small" business; maybe not in $ terms but in company size terms. Small business works on word-of-mouth and personal recommendation first, advertising etc as a last resort. We don't advertise for sales or recruitment but clients and crew still find us..........
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Old 15th May 2010, 10:21
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I know of two non-white pilots who finished training about three years ago, and both were immediately employed in corporate aviation, where they are still happily flying. I actually thought at the time that they had a slight advantage because of their colour - it seemed a definite help to them when they were networking for jobs.
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Old 15th May 2010, 11:09
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Agree with trim stab,I know personally of several ethnic minorities in very senior positions on heavy metal in corporate aviation.They got there by networking(very important in the corporate world) and ability,I also know of many pilots from a working class background who made it,yes they didn't have Mummy & Daddy's money to help them, but they persevered and got there in the end,perseverence and dedication are what count.
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Old 15th May 2010, 19:35
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The one thing guaranteed to stand square in any wannabe's way is a chip on the shoulder.

Others here will disagree, but I also have 'a thing' about people who don't, or can't be bothered to, express themselves in good, clear, English, without glaring errors...

Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?
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Old 16th May 2010, 03:57
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Parisjet

Yes, of course. Feel better now? Ask a stupid question, well, you know what you get
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Old 16th May 2010, 04:34
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well based on personal observation wrt to pilots, in general, although I know of many pilots of all races...in fact I know of a part 61/91 operation that has perhaps 50% minority pilots, or even more---it's a good mixture...the biggest problem, I see is that flying is thought of ignorantly, by many Blacks' as a 'White people's thing'....

wrt to finances, well in the US they have avaition in high schools, I don't know why they think this way, but it is prevalent, so as a result, you have fewer Black pilots
this mode of thinking prevails much less so, it seems, amongst Latinos ---just an observation...call me racist if you'd like

final answer: many more White pilots!
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Old 16th May 2010, 04:41
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Does being white and middleclass an advantage in Corporate aviation?

I bet grammer does. Maybe not though in Zimbabwe.
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Old 16th May 2010, 12:41
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Guys, please don'r rise to parisjet's bait - stay away from any racist comments or this thread goes in the bin.

5 minutes of digging shows that this user, with a detailed knowledge of aviation in Nigeria, has around 500TT, an FAA licence and self-sponsored a ZFT A320 rating at the end of last year.

After hurling itself at any airline opening for the last six months, in countries from Albania to Libya it has decided that it is interested in making a break in corporate aviation in the UK and immediately adopts the stance that any lack of success that it is going to have is as a result of it not being from a white, middleclass background.



You're on my watch-list pj - tread carefully.
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Old 16th May 2010, 18:07
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Corporate aviation hiring practices -

1- The boss wants someone cheap, and if he has the kind of business where everyone he has in his company is cheap labor, I'll put money on it that he will be shopping price in his flight dept. The flight depts hire kids, make them pay for types, training contracts ect....

2- The boss hires people he likes. If he is the kind of guy that hires buddies and pals first over performance, then your likely to get the job offered is someone there knows you, likes you, can play golf, you have something in common with this guy, etc ect.. This the classic flight dept where everyone wonders how 'Joe' got this job flying a GIV with 1500 hours of flight time, oh yeah...he's a golf buddy....

3- The boss hires on performance - Very rare, but he actualy doesn't want to die in a plane crash...he probably won't pay for the best, but he will hire a guy to get the job done...most boss's have a number, so they will hire the right guy, but they will try to get him cheap, and someone that they like.. He get's a guy everyone universaly knows is decent...

4- The boss hires the best - Very rare...but when Donald Trump called Continental to get a guy to fly his 727, he hired away the most senior capt...if only most billionares were like him...

If your low time, an idiot, not very commited to your profession, you should go airline, or try to get a job where the hiring practice is more about who you know, go along, get along, team player kinda of social networking stuff..

If your a hotshot, you'll probably get a job, but depending on the type of boss you get, will depend on how you get paid...most of them want someone decent but don't want to pay for it....
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Old 16th May 2010, 19:38
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Nuname: I'm not from Zimbabwe, I'm British but of African Parentage. Sorry for the grammar.

Last edited by parisjet; 16th May 2010 at 20:12.
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Old 16th May 2010, 20:09
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4HolerPoler: Yes I recently got A320 rated, I am however not from Nigeria but from the UK. My so-called Knowledge of aviation in Nigeria is due to the fact that I went out there to findout about the job market and yes I'm scheduled to visit Libya as well to see the situation. My question was just drawing on an experience I encountered and what colleagues had mentioned to me. I posted a question and was open to opinions and suggestions. My other point you missed out on, was regarding the fact that Corporate aviation hiring policies should not be based on who you know.

Cheers
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Old 16th May 2010, 20:42
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Hello!

My other point you missed out on, was regarding the fact that Corporate aviation hiring policies should not be based on who you know.
Do you have experience in corporate aviation? As a corporate pilot, you come very, very close to the boss/company owner/aircraft owner. You know who he makes business with, what kind of business he makes, you come to know his family, know when and where they go on holiday. Depending on the size of the aeroplane, you can hear what he talks about with co-workers, business partners and family members. After one week on the job the corporate pilot may know much more about his boss then his competition, the tax office and maybe even his wife combined.

Therefore, I am thoroughly convinced that an aircraft owner has every right in the world to choose his pilot/s from people he either knows personally, or gets recommended by people he can trust. This will never change, whatever laws they make.

Regards, Max
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