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Private, N-Reg, CJ2+ with multi-crew in Europe.

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Private, N-Reg, CJ2+ with multi-crew in Europe.

Old 6th Feb 2010, 12:06
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Private, N-Reg, CJ2+ with multi-crew in Europe.

Hello all.

Firstly, can a 'single pilot certified', privately operated, N-registered, CJ2+ be flown in Europe as single crew?

Second, if same aircraft is actually operated multi-crew, can P2 log the hours and will those hours be recognised not only in the US but in the UK/Europe too?

Thanks for your help.

CF
ConcreteFloater is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2010, 12:19
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Hello there

My understanding of the FAA and JAA regulation allows you to fly your CJ2 N registered single pilot and if the right hand seat guy doesn t need a type rating to act as a safety pilot , he can t log the hours flown as P2...

To actually log the hours ;i think that you need an SOP certifying that your JAR 23 or FAR 23 airplane is operate in a multicrew environment and so need to be commercially operated...

This is just my word and as to double check

Fly safe but fly fun
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Old 6th Feb 2010, 12:26
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Firstly, can a 'single pilot certified', privately operated, N-registered, CJ2+ be flown in Europe as single crew?
Yes

Second, if same aircraft is actually operated multi-crew, can P2 log the hours and will those hours be recognised not only in the US but in the UK/Europe too?
Assuming second pilot holds a JAR licence:

a) If Captain is a JAR FI or C525 TRI, then the second pilot can log as PUT.

b) If Captain holds MCC, and second pilot holds C525 type rating and MCC, second pilot can log as P2.

if none of the above apply, then "second pilot" is a passenger.

Last edited by CirrusF; 6th Feb 2010 at 13:55.
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Old 6th Feb 2010, 15:47
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Thank you for your replies.

So, if I understand correctly:

In the scenario that the person in the right hand seat has both FAA and JAA licences, the C525 type rating and MCC then, as far as both authorities are concerned, those hours are logable and fully recognised as P2.

All seems logical. Will of course double check with the authorities but appreciate your input very much.

CF
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Old 6th Feb 2010, 17:13
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If you have a valid licence and a CJ rating, why log as P2? Sit in the left seat and log P1( the other pilot wont be able to log anything)
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Old 6th Feb 2010, 17:21
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If the aircraft is being flown under a single crew approval the second member of the crew logs nothing as by the very nature of the single crew approval it is single crew......
S-Works is offline  
Old 6th Feb 2010, 17:45
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I think you use a single crew ops manual or MEL which requires something (could be as simple as a particular checklist to be available in the cockpit) which you can easily not comply with, so the operation becomes 2 crew.
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 05:53
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Single crew is an option that can be excercised by suitably qualified pilots, it is not mandatory just because the aircraft is certified as single crew. Also, the question pertained to a "N" registered aircraft and as such has no bearing on JAA FCL.
NuName is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2010, 10:00
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For P2 it has to been AOC work. I had to get a letter from company when I put my ATPL in to the CAA saying that all hours in right seat of the CJ was Multi crew as per Jar ops requiring all twin turbofan ac to have two Pilots.

Thats seems to be the only reason that you need two Pilots. The whole if you both have an MCC you can log P2 sounds wrong as you would open up all sorts of ac to be able to have two crews logging time on them.....Multi crew C152's all over the place
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 10:13
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Again, the question refers to a N reg aircraft.
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 10:37
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Thanks again for all the input... looks, as always with FCL issues, like a 'can of worms'!

The situation is that I have the opportunity to fly said A/C as 'First Officer'. The Captain wants to operate always A/C as Multi-Crew but as A/C is privately operated as opposed to AOC this is where I have my concerns that I can get some form of formal/legal recognition with both FAA and JAR/EASA that I am 'actually' operating the A/C as opposed to just going along for the ride!

More research to be done on my part I think!....

CF
ConcreteFloater is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2010, 12:45
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As far the CAA is concern if you want to validate your hours as multi crew, you will need a letter from the chief pilot and a copy of the AOC (i.e: no multi crew hours on a private operation).
In Switzerland, you need a multi crew entry (r or l seat)for the 525 on your licence to be able to log the hours.
France is P1 only for both private and commercial.
Each member state have their own way of dealing with single crew ACFT.

But flying private, only one pilot can log the hours and they are all P1.
flyingmasai is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2010, 12:55
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Again, the question refers to a N reg aircraft.
Not just an N Reg but FAA/JAA logging as well.

Second, if same aircraft is actually operated multi-crew, can P2 log the hours and will those hours be recognised not only in the US but in the UK/Europe too?
The OP asked if the hours could be recognised in Europe so the assumption was that they wanted the hours to count towards a JAR licence.
S-Works is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2010, 13:53
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The OP asked if the hours could be recognised in Europe so the assumption was that they wanted the hours to count towards a JAR licence.
This is definitely the case. I am just over 1000h TT and hoping to get a step into the private/corporate jet industry. I live in the UK and ultimately would like to build my JAA CPL licence as much as possible. For the purpose of this job offer I would get my FAA CPL too... no big deal, and the type rating.

My real concern being in a situation where, yes, as far as my hands-on experience is concerned I am gaining good experience as an FO on a light jet. However, due to the finer details of FCL I will end up with no formal/legal record of such flying. I know that the Captain-FO MCC operation is concerned it will be conducted strictly as if under an AOC, so I know the experience will be very valuable... Would be a hard career decision should I not be able to log P2 in such an operation.

To have JAR and FAA CPLs - Great
To have the type-rating - Great
Not to be able to log hours - Real problem I think!

Anyway, we'll see!

Thanks again.

CF
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 19:16
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Think you will just need a P1 type rating on the 525 on FAA cert. and then all the flying "you" do you log as P1....you just have to get your Captain to agree.
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Old 7th Feb 2010, 21:46
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My understanding is that the 525 is type certified for single pilot or multi pilot, the FAA type rating can be for single pilot or SIC required, I have been told by some AOC 525 pilots that the UK CAA issued them with a MPA type rating!

As far as logging the hours, JAR FCL-1 states: Co-pilot means a pilot operating other than as pilot-in-command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under:
• The list of types of aeroplanes (see Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.220) OR
• The type certification of the aircraft, OR
• The operational regulations under which the flight is conducted.

The 525 type certification requires: one pilot, plus additional equipment as specified in the kind of equipment list OR one pilot and one co-pilot.

With the correct licence and CE525 type rating I think it’s fairly clear that the hours can be logged and do count as multi crew. I have not found any reference to private or commercial ops in any documents.

An aircraft that has a type certification of only one pilot may also be flown with more than one pilot when the operational regulations under which the flight is conducted require it, i.e. AOC. This is not the same as the 525 and I think this is where the misconception comes from.

However, the CAA will have the final say on the interpretation; I have tried to get written conformation but obviously got referred to LASORS. I am interested to see where this ends up for you as I am in exactly the same situation.

Best of luck.
Pressure Error is offline  
Old 7th Feb 2010, 22:12
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N reg CJ Actual Rules... Bollocks relating to JAR/EASA-FCL Removed

There are two different US type ratings

CE-525 = No you cant fly it single crew

CE-525S = Yes, you can fly it single crew but the occupant of the right seat must hold either a CE-525S, CE-525 Type or Have NO Pilot Certificate or Licence (Including a Student pilot Certificate)

That goes for wherever you fly it.

QED

Jeff
HS125 is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2010, 08:32
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I don't see why an AOC would be mandatory to log multicrew. Multicrew certified aircrafts can be operated out of an AOC and there are no logging issues. A multicrew operation manual is definitely required, but that has nothing to do with the flight category (private/commercial).
S.F.L.Y is offline  
Old 8th Feb 2010, 11:42
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I don't see why an AOC would be mandatory to log multicrew. Multicrew certified aircrafts can be operated out of an AOC and there are no logging issues. A multicrew operation manual is definitely required, but that has nothing to do with the flight category (private/commercial).
I don't think anyone is suggesting it is. It is just that if it were such questions can easily be answered based on the details of the AOC itself. However, this will be an aircraft certified for single-pilot operations (and privately).

'Pressure Error' seems to have the right point that it should be possible, it's just a case of making sure that all the factors are in-place.

From what I can see at the moment it will also be dependant on the Captain's rating. IE: If the Captain has the CE-525 rating than, although the A/C is 'capable' of being operated as a SPA, the crew can not and therefore two pilots working in a multi-crew environment are required. If the Captain has the CE-525S rating, things then seem to be more complicated. Basically, so what if I am sitting there! Though, 'HS125'...
CE-525S = Yes, you can fly it single crew but the occupant of the right seat must hold either a CE-525S, CE-525 Type or Have NO Pilot Certificate or Licence (Including a Student pilot Certificate)
...why should it matter that the occupant of the RH seat must have the rating or nothing? If it is being operated as single crew surely the RH seat occupant is purely a passenger regardless of his/her licensing or lack of it!

Once again, thank you all. I'll let you know if I can get to the bottom of this!

Another facinating FCL debate hits PPRuNe!!!

CF
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