Do I need an AOC???

[Fat Geoff]

Ok I have tried my upmost to read and understand JAR-FCL, however to no avail, so here I am once again hoping someone has more time, patience and understanding of 'AOC' stuff than I.

Basically, I have a UK JAR Frozen ATPL. I have been asked by a businessman to fly him about in his private aircraft, the only money exchanging hands would be my payment as the pilot. Does this therefore constitute Commercial Air Transportation, or a Private Flight, and thus do I require an AOC to operate?? LEGALLY!!!

Cheers

[S.F.L.Y]

As long as this person owns the aircraft it's his right to employ a pilot for his private operations. This is not commercial ops as long as the owner/operator is not charging passengers to be allowed to fly.

The main legal issue in your case would be your employment contract.

[pipertommy]

Sorry to thread creep, if you offered to fly a manager and he rented the aircraft and you were asked to fly it for him for no fee.
Is this pushing the boundary?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

interesting question

There are so many grey operations, that I would ask the real question would the punisment for an illegal charter, match the ongoing costs of obtaining and running an OAC.

I speak from experience in Luton, and Dubai. Or perhaps I should say UK, and UAE.. more PC....

glf

[Gulfstreamaviator]

now to answer the question

Assuming you have the licence, type, and current on the aircraft, and the type does not require two crew, then I would say you may operate this aircraft for the company/owner and be paid for your duties.
You have a commercial licence with all the relevent endorsements.

This is NOT a commercial operation. As the requlations stand you do not require an AOC. You should have an operating / operations manual.

In a previous life this is exactly what I was employed to do, and employed as Pilot.

I had need to discuss with the UK CAA, a matter of FTL, as I was also flying UK AOC similar type, they suggested that I shut up, dont ask any questions, especially in writing...as they did not wish to address this situation.

glf

[S.F.L.Y]

If you offered to fly a manager and he rented the aircraft and you were asked to fly it for him for no fee.
Is this pushing the boundary?

What you probably mean is you rent the aircraft and the manager pays you for the rent... which is purely illegal out of an AOC. It all depend on who has the operational control of the aircraft. If you rent it from an airclub, the aircraft is under the airclub's operational control and should only be "rented" to members/pilots. In such case, being paid to rent the aircraft on behalf of a third party is most probably illegal especially if you fly a "manager" for business, even if you're not paid for flying the aircraft.

This is very different from the situation in which an individual has the operational control over the aircraft (ownership, leasing), in which case you can be paid to fly this individual for his private use, without needing an AOC.

This is NOT a commercial operation. As the requlations stand you do not require an AOC. You should have an operating / operations manual.

What for?

[Doing Whats Needed]

IBAC

Morning

If this were to become a regular occurrence, then the adoption of the IBAC's standards and auditing under IS-BAO guidelines would be advisable to demonstrate commitment to best practice. Under some regulatory authorities this is about to be mandated, Bermuda is one. The operation will require an Ops Manual, which will include FTL requirements.

Doing Whats Needed

[S.F.L.Y]

If this were to become a regular occurrence, then the adoption of the IBAC's standards and auditing under IS-BAO guidelines would be advisable to demonstrate commitment to best practice. Under some regulatory authorities this is about to be mandated, Bermuda is one. The operation will require an Ops Manual, which will include FTL requirements.

So far private operations are not required to comply with the IS-BAO. This could be one of the alternatives in the future when private operations of high performance aircraft will require a safety management system, which is included in the IS-BAO.

It's difficult for the Bermuda CAA to achieve a satisfactory oversight of the VP-B registered fleet and one of the solution they found is to suggest adopting the IS-BAO, which would spare them to audit foreign operators in order to comply with the ICAO SMS requirements. The deadline for VP-B operators to either have an approved SMS or an IS-BAO registration was set to the 31st of october 2009. I doubt this is the case. In the Middle East there's only one IS-BAO operator, two implementation consultants and one auditor...for how many VP-B aircraft in the region?

In the particular case of the initial question the point was about legally conducting such flights without an AOC. It is legal since the point is to fly the owner of the aircraft, meaning private operations as long as other passengers are free guests of this owner. So far there is no need for an operation manual or an IS-BAO registration. As I said the only legal issue would be to have a proper employment contract with the owner.

[12Watt Tim]

It is legal, however if you look at the history of accidents in the UK this is where they occur, pilots who fly without external operational control and management. AOC and managed private operations have a much better safety record. I am not by any means saying you shouldn't do it - if you are confident then you should, it will be great experience. What I am saying is that you should be thorough in your preparation, and not fly if you have any serious doubts.

Enjoy the flight

[zoigberg]

Fat Geoff

Provided it is his aeroplane you do not require an AOC.

Just get yourself a good rate for the work and enjoy.

Z

[Fat Geoff]

cheers for the help!! =-)

[Sideliner]

FG

Good afternoon. If you need any information about an AOC hwether needed of not look @ Unique air, U.A.I. Ltd, MD or varriants on this theme. Flying by the seat of your pants constitutes flaunting R&R. Look heavily into the reprocussions before doing anything. Have fun doing IT.

[NuName]

Sideliner
I cant see where you saw that FG wants to "fly by the seat of his pants" but reading his post I understand that there is a man who owns his own aircraft who wants a professional to fly it for him, probably because he can abide by all the R&R and fly safe. Jolly good show I say.

[boredcounter]

At least

Have something like CAP371 written into the contract hours. Whilst most argue outdated, it is far better than nothing. With no governing body and operating 'private' flights, what is there to protect AOC operators from your fatigue?

[toolowtoofast]

If you're worried about it, become his PA/driver, who sometimes takes him places in his own aeroplane.

[Lazy Bird]

"to fly him about in his private aircraft, the only money exchanging hands would be my payment as the pilot"

This is privat aviation in perfection-
No AOC reqd.

[tac1]

IS-BAO

A couple of posts have made reference to IS-BAO on this thread.

IS-BAO is a standard, International Standard for Business Aircraft Operations, and it provides a comprehensive set of criteria for for the control of operations of non-commercial operators or turbojet airplanes, large airplanes and corporate operators.

With effect from 18th November 2010 ALL operations that fall into the above category with have to comply with the requirements of the new ICAO Annex 6 Part II.

The new Annex 6 Part II includes a requirement for a Safety Management System which the IS-BAO contains along with all the other operational management criteria.

Bermuda have decided to take a positive step to enhance safety (my words not theirs) by requiring aircraft on their register that fit into the above criteria are operated by organisations that meet the requirements of Annex 6 Part II by 1st Nov 2009. This is the same incidently for all the UK Overseas territories (Cayman, BVI etc) but Bermuda are the 'pioneers' if you like.

IS-BAO is one way of meeting the new ICAO requirement but there are others.

For those people whose operations meet the new qualifying criteria would do well to look at the requirements now as they will take a while to implement AND I have heard some stories or large operations make very significant insurance savings by meeting the standard.

Hope this helps.

[S.F.L.Y]

tac1, if you're not selling IS-BAO consulting services then I'm Elvis

[12Watt Tim]

So Fat Geoff, did you fly, and if so how did it go?

[clivewatson]

tac1..........

and what you MAY be peddling will be FREE soon on the internet for all who may be in need of it. Watch this space....