Logging IFR hours - is my thinking correct?
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SNS3Guppy,
A copy of the UK ANO can be found at:
The Air Navigation Order 2005
and Lasors available from:
LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation
Happy reading,
Chinchilla.
A copy of the UK ANO can be found at:
The Air Navigation Order 2005
and Lasors available from:
LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation
Happy reading,
Chinchilla.
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SN3Guppy you are repeating a question even though I have pointed out it is irrelevant. If you are signing a legal document to say that you have filled out a page correctly, and it has a column for flight under IFR, you must fill it in correctly to the best of your knowledge!
Chinchilla has answered the question directly, but I am not sure why you think it would be acceptable to fill out the logbook incorrectly and then sign it even if JARs read differently.
Meikleour
Because SN3's answer was not "...perfectly sensible...". It was completely wrong in the context, and quite obviously so from the thread headline, "Logging IFR hours". IFR is a set of flight rules, SN3 started talking about flight reference which is irrelevant.
Had Wodka been in the USA SN3's answer would have been relevant but confusing, as he did not explain why he was suddenly changing to flight reference when Wodka was talking about rules. As it is Wodka was asking about flight in the LTMA. To avoid ambiguity you can look at his location, which is London, so given different rules it can only really be assumed that he means the London TMA, so if he is meat bombing it must be on a JAA licence, so under JAR FCL-1 rules.
We are not talking about military flight logs either. You also logged lift to land in the military I assume, but you can add a little time to each flight when you transfer to a civilian logbook. We are talking here about civilian rules, and IFR not flight by sole reference to instruments.
You are the one making a meaningless statment when you talk about "instrument time", as you are not distinguishing between flight under IFR and flight in IMC, in the very sentence after you complain at others for confusing the two. Wodka is asking about flight under IFR, and he very definitely is required to log time in the TMA as such. He should log other time as such, if he is complying with IFR, has decided to fly under IFR and has informed any ATSU he is in contact with that he is flying under IFR.
Under JAR-FCL-1 the difference between flight under IFR and flight by sole reference to instruments is only relevant to low-hour pilots who want to instruct IF!
PicMas
Don't forget that in the UK (and any other country that does not allow VFR flight at night) a pilot does not even require an instrument qualification to fly IFR in VMC outside controlled airspace.
Chinchilla has answered the question directly, but I am not sure why you think it would be acceptable to fill out the logbook incorrectly and then sign it even if JARs read differently.
Meikleour
Because SN3's answer was not "...perfectly sensible...". It was completely wrong in the context, and quite obviously so from the thread headline, "Logging IFR hours". IFR is a set of flight rules, SN3 started talking about flight reference which is irrelevant.
Had Wodka been in the USA SN3's answer would have been relevant but confusing, as he did not explain why he was suddenly changing to flight reference when Wodka was talking about rules. As it is Wodka was asking about flight in the LTMA. To avoid ambiguity you can look at his location, which is London, so given different rules it can only really be assumed that he means the London TMA, so if he is meat bombing it must be on a JAA licence, so under JAR FCL-1 rules.
We are not talking about military flight logs either. You also logged lift to land in the military I assume, but you can add a little time to each flight when you transfer to a civilian logbook. We are talking here about civilian rules, and IFR not flight by sole reference to instruments.
You are the one making a meaningless statment when you talk about "instrument time", as you are not distinguishing between flight under IFR and flight in IMC, in the very sentence after you complain at others for confusing the two. Wodka is asking about flight under IFR, and he very definitely is required to log time in the TMA as such. He should log other time as such, if he is complying with IFR, has decided to fly under IFR and has informed any ATSU he is in contact with that he is flying under IFR.
Under JAR-FCL-1 the difference between flight under IFR and flight by sole reference to instruments is only relevant to low-hour pilots who want to instruct IF!
PicMas
Don't forget that in the UK (and any other country that does not allow VFR flight at night) a pilot does not even require an instrument qualification to fly IFR in VMC outside controlled airspace.
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Or just check out JAR-FCL directly, search for 1.080 or just go to page 66.
This version is still from the JAA and therefore is a tad older, however FCL 1.080 was not changed even in the most recent version.
This version is still from the JAA and therefore is a tad older, however FCL 1.080 was not changed even in the most recent version.
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SN3Guppy you are repeating a question even though I have pointed out it is irrelevant.
Thanks to Chinchilla.612 for the references, and to Denti, as well.
Perhaps someone can explain the reference in JAR-FCL 1.080 which states:
...(v) A remarks column will be
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.
Appears it's relevant after all, doesn't it?
"...Under JAR-FCL-1 the difference between flight under IFR and flight by sole reference to instruments is only relevant to low-hour pilots who want to instruct IF!"
I don't doubt that this is factually accurate, however, being in clouds with stuff going on that requires that you actually fly an airplane by reference to the instruments as opposed to pressing buttons and looking at the scenery, is a skill that we, as professional pilots who are entrusted with the lives of our passengers are expected to possess. It stands to reason that the rationale behind logging instrument time (given SNS's revelation) is to document that you have actually done this on occasion.
Flying a 182 full of parachutists up to 15000 and trying to beat them back to the ground under visual conditions 10 times in an afternoon exercises none of the skills relevant to instrument flying other than talking to ATC and existing in airspace in which, apparently, you have to "be IFR".
I don't doubt that this is factually accurate, however, being in clouds with stuff going on that requires that you actually fly an airplane by reference to the instruments as opposed to pressing buttons and looking at the scenery, is a skill that we, as professional pilots who are entrusted with the lives of our passengers are expected to possess. It stands to reason that the rationale behind logging instrument time (given SNS's revelation) is to document that you have actually done this on occasion.
Flying a 182 full of parachutists up to 15000 and trying to beat them back to the ground under visual conditions 10 times in an afternoon exercises none of the skills relevant to instrument flying other than talking to ATC and existing in airspace in which, apparently, you have to "be IFR".
Last edited by 421dog; 9th Aug 2009 at 02:19. Reason: typo
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So, now we know. (post above). Next time someone asks, how much instrument time do you have, will it be time on a IFR flight plan or time spent controling the aircraft in IMC? One of these answers would be misleading at the very least.
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The last post from SNS3Guppy is interesting. I hadn't noticed that in JAR-FCL 1 before. So it appears that you "shall" log IFR time but you "may log" instrument time.
My Jeppesen JAR FCL log book which is nearly a direct copy of the JAR-FCL 1 IEM 1.080. (page 2-A-30 & 2-A-31) doesn't contain an Instrument column but does contain an IFR column.
My Jeppesen JAR FCL log book which is nearly a direct copy of the JAR-FCL 1 IEM 1.080. (page 2-A-30 & 2-A-31) doesn't contain an Instrument column but does contain an IFR column.
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SN3
If you have any reasoned argument against anything I have said then feel free to make it. However if you ask a question that has already been answered without addressing that answer, someone will just repeat that, and point out that you are not taking any notice of answers already given!
No, I don't think anyone can explain that to you, as more than one person has and you still appear not to understand. However I will try.
The item says "instrument flight time", and clearly defines this as "time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.". Wodka was asking about time flying under IFR. That is time flown under an IFR clearance in controlled airspace or following instrument flight rules in class F or G airspace.
Notice that under the section you quote the instrument flight time, if it is to be logged at all,is to be logged in a spare column (in some logbooks a separate column is marked "IF", but that is not always the case). That is separate from the IFR column in all JAR logbooks!
If you have any reasoned argument against anything I have said then feel free to make it. However if you ask a question that has already been answered without addressing that answer, someone will just repeat that, and point out that you are not taking any notice of answers already given!
Perhaps someone can explain the reference in JAR-FCL 1.080 which states:
The item says "instrument flight time", and clearly defines this as "time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.". Wodka was asking about time flying under IFR. That is time flown under an IFR clearance in controlled airspace or following instrument flight rules in class F or G airspace.
Notice that under the section you quote the instrument flight time, if it is to be logged at all,is to be logged in a spare column (in some logbooks a separate column is marked "IF", but that is not always the case). That is separate from the IFR column in all JAR logbooks!
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12watt,
We've seen poster after poster patiently explain that the logging of instrument time is only something applicable in the US, that europe does it differently, logging whenever one is on an instrument flight plan, instead. Clearly, as we've seen the regulation verbatim, this is incorrect.
You've attempted patiently to explain the difference between instrument flight, and instrument flight rules...when there has never been a misunderstanding of the fact in any way, shape, or form.
Poster after poster has stated that one MUST and SHALL log IFR when on an IFR flight plan...when this is NOT the case.
The only thing you're left with, then, is the JAR-FCL 1.080 provision for conditions of flight...which provides two classifications: night, and IFR.
You'll note, if you think for a moment, that this is a condition of flight: Night CONDITIONS, and IFR CONDITIONS. Not Night Rules and IFR Rules. Not Night Regulations and IFR Regulations.
The regulation is clear. You log IFR C O N D I T I O N S.
Furthermore, the regulation is explicit with respect to when one may log instrument flight time, and it does not spell out logging it when on an IFR flight plan or clearance. In fact, the only thing to which it points is instrument conditions, and then clearly specifies that instrument conditions are those, and ONLY those in which one is required to operate the aircraft only by reference to instruments or under simulated instrument conditions.
Now, several posters have expounded at great length, stipulating that we can consider nothing but the regulation, and here is the regulation presented verbatim regarding what is required per the JAR-FCL for a logbook entry. Do we find anywhere a reference to logging operational rules applicable to the flight? We do not. Do we find anywhere a reference applicable to logging the type of flight plan under which the flight is conducted? We do not. Do we find anywhere cited in which the log holder is to note the clearance under which the flight is conducted? Hardly.
What we do find is a requirement to note the CONDITIONS under which the flight is conducted, and we're given two options: night conditions, or IFR conditions. Clearly as a flight conducted under instrument flight rules can be in VFR conditions or IFR conditions, the regulation isn't asking the pilot to log the flight plan, the clearance, or the regulation under which he or she has operated...but the CONDITIONS.
Given that the regulation specifies the conditions as being night or IFR, and then clarifies just when IFR conditions may be logged (all together now: "A pilot may log as instrument flighttime only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions")...that leaves us with a regulation which authorizes the logging of IFR conditions and instrument flight when conditions are requiring flight by reference to instruments, or simulated instrument flight.
Nothing in the regulation points to, discusses, or touches on an IFR clearance, an IFR flight plan, or operating under IFR regulations. Only IFR conditions...or in other words, such conditions which do not permit flight without reference to instruments.
Now again, without waffling on about what's relevant here...can you explain this, 12watttim?
Not at all. The regulation stipulates the conditions under which you may log instrument time, but speaks nothing about logging "IFR time."
The regulation speaks to logging IFR conditions of flight, and night conditions of flight. You shall log conduct your log in accordance with the regulation, and you shall log the conditions of flight, be it as applicable, night, or IFR.
Being on a clearance, a flight plan, or operating in a particular airspace dosn't come into it at all.
The logbook does not define the regulation, does it? Of course it does not.
You've seen the regulation copied direct, and it's very specific. What's marked in the logbook is, as you like to say, irrelevant. What's marked in the regulation, as several posters have pointed out, is relevant...and the regulation does NOT speak to instrument flight rules, but IFR CONDITIONS.
We've seen poster after poster patiently explain that the logging of instrument time is only something applicable in the US, that europe does it differently, logging whenever one is on an instrument flight plan, instead. Clearly, as we've seen the regulation verbatim, this is incorrect.
You've attempted patiently to explain the difference between instrument flight, and instrument flight rules...when there has never been a misunderstanding of the fact in any way, shape, or form.
Poster after poster has stated that one MUST and SHALL log IFR when on an IFR flight plan...when this is NOT the case.
The only thing you're left with, then, is the JAR-FCL 1.080 provision for conditions of flight...which provides two classifications: night, and IFR.
You'll note, if you think for a moment, that this is a condition of flight: Night CONDITIONS, and IFR CONDITIONS. Not Night Rules and IFR Rules. Not Night Regulations and IFR Regulations.
The regulation is clear. You log IFR C O N D I T I O N S.
Furthermore, the regulation is explicit with respect to when one may log instrument flight time, and it does not spell out logging it when on an IFR flight plan or clearance. In fact, the only thing to which it points is instrument conditions, and then clearly specifies that instrument conditions are those, and ONLY those in which one is required to operate the aircraft only by reference to instruments or under simulated instrument conditions.
JAR–FCL 1.080 Recording of flight time
(See IEM FCL 1.080)
(a) Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall
be kept in a reliable record in a logbook format
acceptable to the Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080).
Details of flights flown under JAR–OPS 1, may
be recorded in an acceptable computerised
format maintained by the operator. In this case
an operator shall make the records of all flights
operated by the pilot, including differences and
familiarisation training, available on request to
the flight crew member concerned.
(b) The record shall contain the following
information:
(1) Personal details:
Name and address of the holder
(2) For each flight:
(i) Name of Pilot-in-command
(ii) Date (day, month, year) of
flight
(iii) Place and time of departure
and arrival (times (UTC) to be block
time)
(iv) Type (aeroplane make,
model and variant) and registration of
aeroplane
(v) SE, ME
(vi) Total time of flight
(vii) Accumulated total time of
flight
(3) For each flight simulator or FNPT
session:
(i) Type and qualification
number of training device
(ii) Synthetic training device
instruction
(iii) Date (d/m/y)
(iv) Total time of session
(v) Accumulated total time
(4) Pilot function:
(i) Pilot-in-command (including
solo\\\\ slsolo, SPIC, PICUS time)
(ii) Co-pilot
(iii) Dual
(iv) Flight instructor / Flight
examiner
(v) A remarks column will be
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
(See IEM FCL 1.080)
(a) Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall
be kept in a reliable record in a logbook format
acceptable to the Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080).
Details of flights flown under JAR–OPS 1, may
be recorded in an acceptable computerised
format maintained by the operator. In this case
an operator shall make the records of all flights
operated by the pilot, including differences and
familiarisation training, available on request to
the flight crew member concerned.
(b) The record shall contain the following
information:
(1) Personal details:
Name and address of the holder
(2) For each flight:
(i) Name of Pilot-in-command
(ii) Date (day, month, year) of
flight
(iii) Place and time of departure
and arrival (times (UTC) to be block
time)
(iv) Type (aeroplane make,
model and variant) and registration of
aeroplane
(v) SE, ME
(vi) Total time of flight
(vii) Accumulated total time of
flight
(3) For each flight simulator or FNPT
session:
(i) Type and qualification
number of training device
(ii) Synthetic training device
instruction
(iii) Date (d/m/y)
(iv) Total time of session
(v) Accumulated total time
(4) Pilot function:
(i) Pilot-in-command (including
solo\\\\ slsolo, SPIC, PICUS time)
(ii) Co-pilot
(iii) Dual
(iv) Flight instructor / Flight
examiner
(v) A remarks column will be
provided to give details of specific
functions e.g. SPIC, PICUS, instrument
flight time*, etc.
* A pilot may log as instrument flight
time only that time during which he
operates the aircraft solely by reference
to instruments, under actual or
simulated instrument flight conditions.
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
What we do find is a requirement to note the CONDITIONS under which the flight is conducted, and we're given two options: night conditions, or IFR conditions. Clearly as a flight conducted under instrument flight rules can be in VFR conditions or IFR conditions, the regulation isn't asking the pilot to log the flight plan, the clearance, or the regulation under which he or she has operated...but the CONDITIONS.
Given that the regulation specifies the conditions as being night or IFR, and then clarifies just when IFR conditions may be logged (all together now: "A pilot may log as instrument flighttime only that time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions")...that leaves us with a regulation which authorizes the logging of IFR conditions and instrument flight when conditions are requiring flight by reference to instruments, or simulated instrument flight.
Nothing in the regulation points to, discusses, or touches on an IFR clearance, an IFR flight plan, or operating under IFR regulations. Only IFR conditions...or in other words, such conditions which do not permit flight without reference to instruments.
Now again, without waffling on about what's relevant here...can you explain this, 12watttim?
So it appears that you "shall" log IFR time but you "may log" instrument time.
The regulation speaks to logging IFR conditions of flight, and night conditions of flight. You shall log conduct your log in accordance with the regulation, and you shall log the conditions of flight, be it as applicable, night, or IFR.
Being on a clearance, a flight plan, or operating in a particular airspace dosn't come into it at all.
Notice that under the section you quote the instrument flight time, if it is to be logged at all,is to be logged in a spare column (in some logbooks a separate column is marked "IF", but that is not always the case). That is separate from the IFR column in all JAR logbooks!
You've seen the regulation copied direct, and it's very specific. What's marked in the logbook is, as you like to say, irrelevant. What's marked in the regulation, as several posters have pointed out, is relevant...and the regulation does NOT speak to instrument flight rules, but IFR CONDITIONS.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 9th Aug 2009 at 10:01.
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SN3
No. You are simply, plainly, objectively wrong. It is a common error, although more often among pilots with little or no IFR experience.
IFR, Instrument Flight Rules, have nothing to do with in-flight conditions. They relate only to operational conditions. IFR stands for Instrument Flight Rules, and can be flown under any meteorological conditions, and under diurnal or nocturnal conditions. VFR, Visual Flight Rules, are related to conditions, as one of the rules is that the aircraft must remain in VMC (and in UK airspace cannot be flown under at night).
IMC is an in-flight condition, Instrument Meteorological Conditions, under which one is only permitted to fly under IFR. However Wodka's question did not ask about logging time under IMC, it asked about logging time under IFR.
By the way I know of no airspace in the UK where an instrument-rated pilot cannot choose to fly under IFR under day VMC in-flight conditions as long as those IFR are complied with. I have been to areas where no IFR flight is allowed (Egelsbach in Germany for example) but not in the UK FIRs.
How much clearer do you want it to be? The extract below is from the rules you quotes, and yes it instructs that your record "shall" (not "may") contain flight under IFR. Sorry but again you are just objectively wrong.
I am not sure why you ask me to answer for sleepybuddha's comments. Please check who wrote what!
A logbook does certainly not define the regulations. However I sign every page of my logbook, and it is a legal document. It is also designed by someone who is actually familiar with flight in the UK, unlike some people I could mention.
No. You are simply, plainly, objectively wrong. It is a common error, although more often among pilots with little or no IFR experience.
IFR, Instrument Flight Rules, have nothing to do with in-flight conditions. They relate only to operational conditions. IFR stands for Instrument Flight Rules, and can be flown under any meteorological conditions, and under diurnal or nocturnal conditions. VFR, Visual Flight Rules, are related to conditions, as one of the rules is that the aircraft must remain in VMC (and in UK airspace cannot be flown under at night).
IMC is an in-flight condition, Instrument Meteorological Conditions, under which one is only permitted to fly under IFR. However Wodka's question did not ask about logging time under IMC, it asked about logging time under IFR.
By the way I know of no airspace in the UK where an instrument-rated pilot cannot choose to fly under IFR under day VMC in-flight conditions as long as those IFR are complied with. I have been to areas where no IFR flight is allowed (Egelsbach in Germany for example) but not in the UK FIRs.
Do we find anywhere a reference to logging operational rules applicable to the flight? We do not.
(b) The record shall contain the following information:
...
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
...
(5) Operational conditions:
(i) Night
(ii) IFR
A logbook does certainly not define the regulations. However I sign every page of my logbook, and it is a legal document. It is also designed by someone who is actually familiar with flight in the UK, unlike some people I could mention.
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It doesn't say IFR conditions. The subtle difference is that it wants to know the conditions under which you operated.
at night
or under Instrument Flight Rules
I understand what IMC is...Instrument Metorlogical Conditions (when you can't comply with the Visual flight Rules because your not in VMC). There is no such definition for IFR conditions. Just a definition for IFR.
Instrument flight (IF) it says is to be noted in the remarks column.
In the IEM pages at the back of JAR-FCL 1 there are examples of log book pages to comply with the regulations. No instrument flight time column just a remarks column for that.
But there is a specific IFR column. There emphasis appears to be on time conducted under Instrument Flight Rule (IFR).
I think 12watt tim explained it better.
at night
or under Instrument Flight Rules
I understand what IMC is...Instrument Metorlogical Conditions (when you can't comply with the Visual flight Rules because your not in VMC). There is no such definition for IFR conditions. Just a definition for IFR.
Instrument flight (IF) it says is to be noted in the remarks column.
In the IEM pages at the back of JAR-FCL 1 there are examples of log book pages to comply with the regulations. No instrument flight time column just a remarks column for that.
But there is a specific IFR column. There emphasis appears to be on time conducted under Instrument Flight Rule (IFR).
I think 12watt tim explained it better.
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I am not sure why you ask me to answer for sleepybuddha's comments.
It is a common error, although more often among pilots with little or no IFR experience.
The clue in the verbiage of the regulation is the header: CONDITIONS.
IFR, Instrument Flight Rules, have nothing to do with in-flight conditions. They relate only to operational conditions. IFR stands for Instrument Flight Rules, and can be flown under any meteorological conditions, and under diurnal or nocturnal conditions.
There emphasis appears to be on time conducted under Instrument Flight Rule (IFR).
The only definition cited beyond what's been listed, is in JAR FCL 1.001, and is for "Instrument Flight Time." Nowhere does it address operations under instrument flight rules or in accordance with an ATC clearance, but simply...
Instrument flight time:
Time during which a pilot is controlling an
aircraft in flight solely by reference to
instruments.
Time during which a pilot is controlling an
aircraft in flight solely by reference to
instruments.
Accordingly, what's printed in your logbook, as Tim likes to say, is irrelevant.
What's printed in the JAR FCL, however, isn't...and it doesn't point to logging time under an IFR flight plan at all...only to IFR Conditions.
www.jaa.nl/publications/jars/500969.pdf
This document points to an EASA document providing a definition of "IFR conditions. Specifically, the reference from the above link states:
*‘IFR conditions’
ref. EASA CS-Definitions.
ref. EASA CS-Definitions.
This link provides a definition for "IFR Conditions" as follows:
‘IFR conditions’ means weather conditions below the minimum for flight under visual flight rules.
SNS, for some reason that escapes me, I've spent several hours chasing European references.
Near as I can tell, you're right.
Last night, I wrote a fairly inflammatory post impuning the motives of those who would pad their experience with "flight under IFR" rather than "Flight in IMC" which disappeared (presumably deleted by the moderators). It seems to me that the practice as promulgated by "Timmy" et al is, indeed, indefensible.
Let 'em beat you up, at least one of us thinks you're right.
Near as I can tell, you're right.
Last night, I wrote a fairly inflammatory post impuning the motives of those who would pad their experience with "flight under IFR" rather than "Flight in IMC" which disappeared (presumably deleted by the moderators). It seems to me that the practice as promulgated by "Timmy" et al is, indeed, indefensible.
Let 'em beat you up, at least one of us thinks you're right.
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I'm certainly open to a frank explanation for these references, but thus far none has been forthcoming...other than references to a printed logbook. I'm no expert in European air legislation...not remotely close. I would like to see a reference that explains away what's already been posted though, and clearly shows that one should log time not based on IFR conditions (as defined), but on a flight plan, airspace, or a clearance.
Seems that explanation is rather elusive. In all probability they may be right...but it would be nice to see a conclusive answer beyond conjecture.
For moral and practical purposes, however, you're absolutely right. Logging is done for the purposes of recording experience, and time spent on an IFR clearance, of it's own accord, is about as valuable as a two legged milkstool in an earthquake. Time spent actively engaged in the art of instrument flight, however, regardless of the clearance, flight plan, or airspace, is an educational commodity which requires close attention to detail, situational awareness, a rapid scan, a good mastery of the aircraft and instrumentation, a working knowledge of procedure, and genuine skills.
I suppose I can see why some might be drawn to piling up as much time as they can simply on an IFR flight plan, instead...
Seems that explanation is rather elusive. In all probability they may be right...but it would be nice to see a conclusive answer beyond conjecture.
For moral and practical purposes, however, you're absolutely right. Logging is done for the purposes of recording experience, and time spent on an IFR clearance, of it's own accord, is about as valuable as a two legged milkstool in an earthquake. Time spent actively engaged in the art of instrument flight, however, regardless of the clearance, flight plan, or airspace, is an educational commodity which requires close attention to detail, situational awareness, a rapid scan, a good mastery of the aircraft and instrumentation, a working knowledge of procedure, and genuine skills.
I suppose I can see why some might be drawn to piling up as much time as they can simply on an IFR flight plan, instead...
2nd + opinion - SNS2Guppy is spot on (at least with regards to Aussie & NZ regs)
2 cents worth - log IFR flight plan time if you need to obtain the ATP "planned IFR" rq's. This is not IF/IMC/ ACTUAL IF flight time as shown in typical logbook column. You can create a column in your logbook to log IFR flight plan time to know when you have reached the IFR rq... then scrap it.
story: I know a retired QANTAS Captain who has logged less IF time than many 1000 hour wannabees.
Tip: use your stopwatch when you enter/leave IMC conditions.
2 cents worth - log IFR flight plan time if you need to obtain the ATP "planned IFR" rq's. This is not IF/IMC/ ACTUAL IF flight time as shown in typical logbook column. You can create a column in your logbook to log IFR flight plan time to know when you have reached the IFR rq... then scrap it.
story: I know a retired QANTAS Captain who has logged less IF time than many 1000 hour wannabees.
Tip: use your stopwatch when you enter/leave IMC conditions.
Guppy,
I have enjoyed your robust arguments but it seems the time has come when the phrase
"You can take a horse to water but you can`t make it drink" has arrived! Happy flying - VFR/IFR or otherwise!
I have enjoyed your robust arguments but it seems the time has come when the phrase
"You can take a horse to water but you can`t make it drink" has arrived! Happy flying - VFR/IFR or otherwise!
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Wodka,
Sorry for ignoring your question, but I have to admit that I missed your point at first as I got distracted by the definitions arguement that has taken over on here lol.
To answer your question about logging P1 IFR whilst doing your job, I can not give you a definite answer but am able to tell you my own experience. My first job (after instructing) was flying aerial surveys, and as such I would spend up to 6 hours per sortie flying (often inside Class A airspace including the London TMA) but as you can imagine flying IMC would not produce very good images! Our flights were given clearances to enter the airspace, but we were not flying on an IFR flight plan, they were special clearances. A friend of mine flies para dropping and tells me they have a similar clearance......but as I said, I cannot comment on your own operation.
Since, at the time the IFR time would have been useful to me for moving onto air taxi work (to meet the 100hrs ME IFR for single pilot ops) I enquired from the UK CAA PLD about the validity of logging those hours. The response was that the IFR hours had to have been logged on an IFR flight planned route, or could be achieved in actual IF conditions (IMC).
So for my own operation only those hours spent positioning to/from survey sites in IMC counted, and the several hundred hours flying in Class A airspace did not.
This was about 4 years ago though, so if you want a definate and up to date answer check with the CAA, they have always been very approachable to me.
That said though, unless you are planning to do single pilot charters or IR instruction there seems very little point worrying over it. Once I'd met the 100 hour starting point, I've never been asked my IF or IFR time since. Also, if you are thinking of going down the single pilot charter line.....bear in mind that it's multi engine IFR time you need for most AOC requirements (just thought I'd mention that incase you're flying a single at present).
Sorry for the previous thread creep, and hope that helps you.
Chinchilla.
Sorry for ignoring your question, but I have to admit that I missed your point at first as I got distracted by the definitions arguement that has taken over on here lol.
To answer your question about logging P1 IFR whilst doing your job, I can not give you a definite answer but am able to tell you my own experience. My first job (after instructing) was flying aerial surveys, and as such I would spend up to 6 hours per sortie flying (often inside Class A airspace including the London TMA) but as you can imagine flying IMC would not produce very good images! Our flights were given clearances to enter the airspace, but we were not flying on an IFR flight plan, they were special clearances. A friend of mine flies para dropping and tells me they have a similar clearance......but as I said, I cannot comment on your own operation.
Since, at the time the IFR time would have been useful to me for moving onto air taxi work (to meet the 100hrs ME IFR for single pilot ops) I enquired from the UK CAA PLD about the validity of logging those hours. The response was that the IFR hours had to have been logged on an IFR flight planned route, or could be achieved in actual IF conditions (IMC).
So for my own operation only those hours spent positioning to/from survey sites in IMC counted, and the several hundred hours flying in Class A airspace did not.
This was about 4 years ago though, so if you want a definate and up to date answer check with the CAA, they have always been very approachable to me.
That said though, unless you are planning to do single pilot charters or IR instruction there seems very little point worrying over it. Once I'd met the 100 hour starting point, I've never been asked my IF or IFR time since. Also, if you are thinking of going down the single pilot charter line.....bear in mind that it's multi engine IFR time you need for most AOC requirements (just thought I'd mention that incase you're flying a single at present).
Sorry for the previous thread creep, and hope that helps you.
Chinchilla.
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Thread creep or not, I'm sure Wodka got all the information he would have got anyway. Fact is SNS3Guppy is totaly correct and my countrymen should be slightly embarrased at having to have this explained to them by one of our American collegues.
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NuName,
Whilst I'm sure there are different ways to interpret written regulations to fit in with ones own understanding, I think I'll stick with the UK CAA's version of it rather than Mr Guppys' (no matter how well intentioned).
The many posts on here (from your own countrymen as you put it) are correct, and over here in JAR land IFR is time spent on an IFR flight planned route, and IMC is IF and should be recorded in the remarks (or spare column) of your logbook. This is worth doing as it is stated quite clearly in LASORS (which is of no relevance to the FAA amongst us, but is rather important for anyone wanting to upgrade a JAA licence) that "1 hour sole reference to instruments may be counted as 4 hours flight by IFR." thus also reinforcing the difference. (Lasors H2.1 if you want to look it up). If as Guppy maintains IF and IFR are the same, this variance would truly make no sense.
The reason I was given for keeping a record of IFR time as well as IF time is due to the complex and busy airspace in Europe, and to show currency in the operating environment (or operational condition if you will). There is still a requirement to also record the time spent flying by sole ref to the instruments (IF time) in accordance with the ANO. In this way you have a record of your experience for both Instrument Flying skills, and currency of operational procedures.
I'm sure if we all read up on the FAA regs we'd find other ways to interpret how they do things too, but is it reallly worth it?!
Surely the best plan is to record the information requested by our own local licencing authorities, (but perhaps be sure to input only the IF time when applying for an FAA position since they do not want to know how much time has been spent operating under Instrument Flight Rules).
At the end of the day, we don't have to agree with any of the rules the authority set....we just have to follow them.
Chinchilla.
Whilst I'm sure there are different ways to interpret written regulations to fit in with ones own understanding, I think I'll stick with the UK CAA's version of it rather than Mr Guppys' (no matter how well intentioned).
The many posts on here (from your own countrymen as you put it) are correct, and over here in JAR land IFR is time spent on an IFR flight planned route, and IMC is IF and should be recorded in the remarks (or spare column) of your logbook. This is worth doing as it is stated quite clearly in LASORS (which is of no relevance to the FAA amongst us, but is rather important for anyone wanting to upgrade a JAA licence) that "1 hour sole reference to instruments may be counted as 4 hours flight by IFR." thus also reinforcing the difference. (Lasors H2.1 if you want to look it up). If as Guppy maintains IF and IFR are the same, this variance would truly make no sense.
The reason I was given for keeping a record of IFR time as well as IF time is due to the complex and busy airspace in Europe, and to show currency in the operating environment (or operational condition if you will). There is still a requirement to also record the time spent flying by sole ref to the instruments (IF time) in accordance with the ANO. In this way you have a record of your experience for both Instrument Flying skills, and currency of operational procedures.
I'm sure if we all read up on the FAA regs we'd find other ways to interpret how they do things too, but is it reallly worth it?!
Surely the best plan is to record the information requested by our own local licencing authorities, (but perhaps be sure to input only the IF time when applying for an FAA position since they do not want to know how much time has been spent operating under Instrument Flight Rules).
At the end of the day, we don't have to agree with any of the rules the authority set....we just have to follow them.
Chinchilla.
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I should also point out as a parachute pilot myself, we are not operating under IFR when dropping. We are operating under an exemption that allows us into Class A airspace. It is physically impossible for us to operate under Instrument Flight Rules when climbing and descending vertically!! So in anwer to the original question relating to parachute dropping none of the time is IFR. You will of course be climbing and descending through cloud a lot of time so you can log those bits in the instrument flight column.
SNS is bang on with his interpretation. At work we fly a mix of IFR and VFR and I have only ever logged flight time by sole reference to instruments not IFR time. I make a note in the comments column if it was an IFR or VFR flight plan. I can often do an IFR flight and not see so much as a fluff of cloud in 6 hours.
In the UK a pilot with a PPL and no IR or IMC can fly everywhere under IFR having to remain VMC so logging IFR time is utterly pointless.
SNS is bang on with his interpretation. At work we fly a mix of IFR and VFR and I have only ever logged flight time by sole reference to instruments not IFR time. I make a note in the comments column if it was an IFR or VFR flight plan. I can often do an IFR flight and not see so much as a fluff of cloud in 6 hours.
In the UK a pilot with a PPL and no IR or IMC can fly everywhere under IFR having to remain VMC so logging IFR time is utterly pointless.
