European Union Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS)
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Central Europe
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Sepp
The same (EU-based AOC operator, below minimas but expanding ...) applies for us. According to the information we've received from Unité ETS at Paris, for the time being "no furhter actions are required. If you don't fall anymore under the "de minimi" threshold, then Eurocontrol will know it and add you into an updated list of aircraft operators". This all sound very confusing if not chaotic to me ... and I refuse to believe that expanding small operators are well advised to do nothing, therefore we have decided to do a statistical analysis of fuel used from 1.1.2010 on our side (although Paris' response to it was "you can do it in order to be sure of your situation but it is not required"). Other than that we just wait and see ...
What are you doing? Do you have other statements?
Regards, A70
The same (EU-based AOC operator, below minimas but expanding ...) applies for us. According to the information we've received from Unité ETS at Paris, for the time being "no furhter actions are required. If you don't fall anymore under the "de minimi" threshold, then Eurocontrol will know it and add you into an updated list of aircraft operators". This all sound very confusing if not chaotic to me ... and I refuse to believe that expanding small operators are well advised to do nothing, therefore we have decided to do a statistical analysis of fuel used from 1.1.2010 on our side (although Paris' response to it was "you can do it in order to be sure of your situation but it is not required"). Other than that we just wait and see ...
What are you doing? Do you have other statements?
Regards, A70
A70 Well, like I said earlier, I'm on the brink of leaving the company - it's not exactly great being without a bread-and-butter job in these uncertain times, but I'm already enjoying not having to do anything at all about ETS and various other EASA/EU faff, so it's not all bad news!
I agree that the lucky few are ill-advised to sit on their hands; rather they should be using the time to get ahead of the game - however, I was instructed by the AM/CEO to not expend resources pursuing the matter, further than monitoring our position relative to the threshold and reporting at the various management meetings. That, I have done. I have no idea what my successor is going to do when the time comes, as I am no longer party to that sort of discussion. I'm sorry I can't provide a more helpful answer.
I agree that the lucky few are ill-advised to sit on their hands; rather they should be using the time to get ahead of the game - however, I was instructed by the AM/CEO to not expend resources pursuing the matter, further than monitoring our position relative to the threshold and reporting at the various management meetings. That, I have done. I have no idea what my successor is going to do when the time comes, as I am no longer party to that sort of discussion. I'm sorry I can't provide a more helpful answer.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jungle or Sand!!!!!!
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well here it is, for us small emitters the tool has been published, dont know wether to cry for joy or just cry.... good Luck
Small emitters tool
It is recognised in Part 4 of Annex XIV of the Guidelines on monitoring, reporting and verification (Decision 2007/589/EC) that small emitters should be able to use a less burdensome approach to determine their fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.
This simplified approach to monitoring is based on fuel consumption estimation tools, which generally utilise statistical information that relates fuel consumption to the distance flown. These tools must first be approved by the Commission before they can be used by small emitters for monitoring purposes.
On 9 July 2010 the Commission adopted a Regulation on the approval of a simplified tool developed by Eurocontrol to estimate the fuel consumption of certain small emitting aircraft operators developed by Eurocontrol. The tool is available on Eurocontrol's website.
EUROCONTROL - Small Emitters' Tool
Small emitters tool
It is recognised in Part 4 of Annex XIV of the Guidelines on monitoring, reporting and verification (Decision 2007/589/EC) that small emitters should be able to use a less burdensome approach to determine their fuel consumption and CO2 emissions.
This simplified approach to monitoring is based on fuel consumption estimation tools, which generally utilise statistical information that relates fuel consumption to the distance flown. These tools must first be approved by the Commission before they can be used by small emitters for monitoring purposes.
On 9 July 2010 the Commission adopted a Regulation on the approval of a simplified tool developed by Eurocontrol to estimate the fuel consumption of certain small emitting aircraft operators developed by Eurocontrol. The tool is available on Eurocontrol's website.
EUROCONTROL - Small Emitters' Tool
I'd like to say "unbelievable" - but sadly, it isn't. 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm beginning to doubt myself so I'll look at it again in a couple of days and after a few drinks. At one point I thought I understood what I was doing, 
now I really think I'm missing something beside brain cells. 
M.E
now I really think I'm missing something beside brain cells. M.E
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jungle or Sand!!!!!!
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok so now I have used a greater circle +95km (why not 52nm is beyond me) plug it in and to my aircraft type and got fuel and emissions.
So far the year has produced a staggering 220 tons.
And now?
Must I get some aviation leech to confirm I can move data around a spread sheet.
I want to start buying co2 can anybody elaborate how we go about this. Going to buy some while cheap, hopefully will get a bonus for my forward thinking
or sell to company with a margin added for myself, for is this not the idea
So far the year has produced a staggering 220 tons.
And now?
Must I get some aviation leech to confirm I can move data around a spread sheet.
I want to start buying co2 can anybody elaborate how we go about this. Going to buy some while cheap, hopefully will get a bonus for my forward thinking
or sell to company with a margin added for myself, for is this not the idea
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just curious if anybody has played around with this tool.
Having pulled up all our flights from February the fuel used came to around 20,000 kg. (Learjet 40 flight times from 1 to 4hrs europe and US)
Calculating the GC route distances+95km and plugging them into the tool gave a whopping 32,600 kg
I know it is just an estimate but a 60% difference (in their favour) seem excessive.
Hopefully I've made a computational error somewhere in the calculations but just wondered if anybody else has tried it?
M.E.
Having pulled up all our flights from February the fuel used came to around 20,000 kg. (Learjet 40 flight times from 1 to 4hrs europe and US)
Calculating the GC route distances+95km and plugging them into the tool gave a whopping 32,600 kg
I know it is just an estimate but a 60% difference (in their favour) seem excessive.
Hopefully I've made a computational error somewhere in the calculations but just wondered if anybody else has tried it?
M.E.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Jungle or Sand!!!!!!
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Echo, I have the same calculations issues. the calculator has even stated on our long trips we burn more fuel than we can carry.
me thinks there is a rat amongst the pigeons. will be intresting to see what EBAA say about it.
Matt
me thinks there is a rat amongst the pigeons. will be intresting to see what EBAA say about it.
Matt
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mattman
Thanks, I was seriously doubting if I was doing all the conversions right.
I have passed on my spreadsheet to BBGA (and then to EBAA). Something is not right but not in our favour -- strange that
Out of interest I have also contacted the Environment Agency about how we are supposed to present the reports. Would I be be expecting too much if we could just report "We have used xxxxxx kg of fuel this year" !!!?
Back to my hole.
Thanks, I was seriously doubting if I was doing all the conversions right.
I have passed on my spreadsheet to BBGA (and then to EBAA). Something is not right but not in our favour -- strange that
Out of interest I have also contacted the Environment Agency about how we are supposed to present the reports. Would I be be expecting too much if we could just report "We have used xxxxxx kg of fuel this year" !!!?
Back to my hole.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bombardier Operators.
It has been brought to my attention (yes, I know I should have seen it!) that Bombardier has issued a Communique BCSB Com 0309.
We are aware that a discrepancy exists in the fuel consumption and CO2 values for Bombardier aircraft when using the tool compared to the fuel consumption and emissions calculations determined by Bombardier and posted on the CIC website
They are working to resolve this.
M.E.
It has been brought to my attention (yes, I know I should have seen it!
) that Bombardier has issued a Communique BCSB Com 0309.We are aware that a discrepancy exists in the fuel consumption and CO2 values for Bombardier aircraft when using the tool compared to the fuel consumption and emissions calculations determined by Bombardier and posted on the CIC website
They are working to resolve this.
M.E.
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hilton, Sheraton or Marriott
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dragged our heels as much as possible but finally have an approved plan. Whoop-dee-doo!!
Within two days of the approved plan skimming into the Inbox I have received another letter from these toss-pots informing me that:
The reality of completing the onerous requirements to have an "Aircraft Operator Holding Account" is eye-watering. Full disclosure on the "Authorized Representatives" including a copy of my passport (all pages are required - are they mad? - I have a 50 page passport), a criminal record check, proof of permanent residential address (I don't have one, I'm a corporate aviator) and then the quirky Proof of Name requirement - the same 50 page passport will suffice. And I need a minimum of another "Authorized Representative" - the bureaucrats really have us bent over a barrel on this issue.
We're a corporate aviation department; have no interest in signing up to trade carbon credits - please tell me that there's someway around this - surely we can use Universal or Jet Aviation or the like to act as our proxy or appoint a trader to act on our behalf.
There have been many stumbling blocks on this seedy road but this is a big one; my corporate & legal folk are never going to go with this - any suggestions?
Within two days of the approved plan skimming into the Inbox I have received another letter from these toss-pots informing me that:
"Dear Operator, As you may be aware you are required to open your Aviation account within the CSEUR (Union Registry)."
We're a corporate aviation department; have no interest in signing up to trade carbon credits - please tell me that there's someway around this - surely we can use Universal or Jet Aviation or the like to act as our proxy or appoint a trader to act on our behalf.
There have been many stumbling blocks on this seedy road but this is a big one; my corporate & legal folk are never going to go with this - any suggestions?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Qatar mainly & Sometimes Oxfordshire or Texas!
Age: 46
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4HolerPoler,
Firstly congrats on the approval for your monitoring plan. Just out of interest though, is that the old style monitoring plan or the new one which comes in from the end of July this year? I had an email from our incompetent authority to expect the new style forms to be available for completion online around the end of July.
Despite initially being allocated to Greece, just after we completed our first emissions report (after verification) the EU decided to change us over to Germany. With their very own way of completing everything and their own online only forms I was forced to restart the entire process from scratch with only one week left till the submission deadline. Got to love the way they disorganise everything!
I have been working on the holding account problem for a few months now with the German authority demanding all kinds of things as you describe there. Unfortunately a lot of what they request is simply not available from our country of operation so progress is particularly slow on this as I have to keep reverting to them in response to each of their suggestions. E.g. "no I have not been able to pursuade the government here to do xxxxxx just in order to satisfy your requirements, perhaps you could liaise through your embassy and see if you have more luck with this?"
The German response to our query about appointing a proxy or trader to complete this on our behalf was that it had to be done by the entity for whom the aircraft was recorded with EuroControl. So if your EuroControl bills go to Universal you're onto a winner.......if, like us, your EuroControl bills go to yourselves as the operator then not so much! Unless of course, the authority you are administered by has a different interpretation of the rules (as each member state is doing it their own way!).
If you come across an easier way to deal with all this nonsense please get in touch, and that goes for anyone else with tips to share too!
Finally, to put it into perspective - in 2011 we produced a grand total of 106 tonnes of CO2 within the trading scam area which was spread over a total of 17 afflicted flights............
Firstly congrats on the approval for your monitoring plan. Just out of interest though, is that the old style monitoring plan or the new one which comes in from the end of July this year? I had an email from our incompetent authority to expect the new style forms to be available for completion online around the end of July.
Despite initially being allocated to Greece, just after we completed our first emissions report (after verification) the EU decided to change us over to Germany. With their very own way of completing everything and their own online only forms I was forced to restart the entire process from scratch with only one week left till the submission deadline. Got to love the way they disorganise everything!
I have been working on the holding account problem for a few months now with the German authority demanding all kinds of things as you describe there. Unfortunately a lot of what they request is simply not available from our country of operation so progress is particularly slow on this as I have to keep reverting to them in response to each of their suggestions. E.g. "no I have not been able to pursuade the government here to do xxxxxx just in order to satisfy your requirements, perhaps you could liaise through your embassy and see if you have more luck with this?"
The German response to our query about appointing a proxy or trader to complete this on our behalf was that it had to be done by the entity for whom the aircraft was recorded with EuroControl. So if your EuroControl bills go to Universal you're onto a winner.......if, like us, your EuroControl bills go to yourselves as the operator then not so much! Unless of course, the authority you are administered by has a different interpretation of the rules (as each member state is doing it their own way!).
If you come across an easier way to deal with all this nonsense please get in touch, and that goes for anyone else with tips to share too!
Finally, to put it into perspective - in 2011 we produced a grand total of 106 tonnes of CO2 within the trading scam area which was spread over a total of 17 afflicted flights............
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: ME
Posts: 5,502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is the "small emitters tool" really an excel spreadsheet with 10 rows and 5 columns? If this is the case, then I'm extremely happy to know that the EC are not wasting our tax euros on worthless and time wasting fully functioning tools
Mutt
Mutt
Dear Europe,
Thank you for saving the planet with paperwork, taxes, and a billion man-hours spent by those trying to avoid punishment if they don't comply with your decrees.
Without you, we were all doomed.
Love,
Dog
Thank you for saving the planet with paperwork, taxes, and a billion man-hours spent by those trying to avoid punishment if they don't comply with your decrees.
Without you, we were all doomed.
Love,
Dog
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had a lot of communications with the Eurocontrol Small Emitter people trying to get the figures for our aircraft (Learjet 40XR) correct.
Using the original tool we were using more fuel than our big brother Learjet 45XR
I found they just looked on the FAA website and found that the 40 and 45 had the same Type Certificate, the fact that the 40 is lighter and has no APU was not taken into account and they were lumped together. To give them their due they did eventually take this on board after I explained about Type Certificates and different models plus real figures from our flights. They basically did not know. It is now not great but much better than before.
For those coming under the UK you could try sending something to
Red Tape Challenge - Aviation or e-mail
[email protected]
Closes tomorrow (Thursday) but I only knew last week.
I did a couple of memos on ETS and EASA. They will have absolutely no effect, but after a rant and a cup of tea I felt better
How to explain the Registry to our Financial Diretor and accounts is the next problem - still too far for retirement to be an option.
Mike Echo
Using the original tool we were using more fuel than our big brother Learjet 45XR
I found they just looked on the FAA website and found that the 40 and 45 had the same Type Certificate, the fact that the 40 is lighter and has no APU was not taken into account and they were lumped together. To give them their due they did eventually take this on board after I explained about Type Certificates and different models plus real figures from our flights. They basically did not know. It is now not great but much better than before.
For those coming under the UK you could try sending something to
Red Tape Challenge - Aviation or e-mail
[email protected]
Closes tomorrow (Thursday) but I only knew last week.
I did a couple of memos on ETS and EASA. They will have absolutely no effect, but after a rant and a cup of tea I felt better
How to explain the Registry to our Financial Diretor and accounts is the next problem - still too far for retirement to be an option.
Mike Echo
