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Knowing your seat...

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Old 9th Dec 2008, 16:44
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Knowing your seat...

Ive been a good co-pilot for many years and now I'm a Captain on a LJ45 for an extremely wealthy African corporate. I've paid my dues - contract work: UNWFP, ICRC, DHL and airline experience on B737's.

My co-pilot and only colleague on our one aircraft is very difficult to work with. He's got about a third of my experience in hours, but in career about a tenth. ie in Africa he's very lucky to be where he is and good for him! But unfortunately it has gone straight to his head.

The result is that he causes conflict on the flight deck with the most bizarre issues! I've been very diplomatic so far (10 months), but with reasonable boundaries and real effort to try and help him along.

He doesn't respond well to criticism, but unfortunately the time has come now to crack the whip.

Any constructive suggestions?
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Old 9th Dec 2008, 18:00
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Oh Trubru. I have been there too. I just don't get it. Do these guys think we were born into the left seat? We all had to spend time, (me years) on the right learning from someone with the hours, experience and know all to run the show. Where do these dumbwits get their self-confidence from?
For me it is vitally important to be flying with a good guy who knows their place and does it well. Otherwise very quickly it will turn your job into a nightmare!
I have not found the answer to your question yet but I do sympathise with your predicament and would be very interested too in hearing others opinions on how to solve this, what seems to be an ever increasing problem.
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Old 9th Dec 2008, 19:31
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His initals aren't DM by chance?
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Old 9th Dec 2008, 20:40
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It may not be constructive but...

...there is a great CRM training video out there of a three man crewed aircraft filmed in the sim. Basically, the Captain was pre-briefed that during the sim checkride he'd basically be a total sh*t to the other two crew. If I remember correctly he starts off with a "right then sunshine, everything on this side of the center-console is mine and you don't touch it" and it progresses to a "gear up, flaps up, shut up" take-off.

The point being - that video has all the destructive elements of non-CRM in it, do the opposite and you should be well on the way towards setting a path to crew harmony.

You could also try looking in here for some suitable ideas:

http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...e-planning-93/

Last edited by FlightTester; 9th Dec 2008 at 20:51.
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Old 9th Dec 2008, 21:11
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I was taught by the RAF how to deal with overconfident students, and I have found that the same can be applied to those in the RHS who need a reallity check. It's quite simple really, and does not in any way involve confrontation, or an "atmosphere" on the flight deck.

Simply set the candidate tasks that you know he will fail to achieve. If you set the goal posts correctly, a post flight debrief will not even be required - he will know he failed to accomplish the desired task, and worse for him (or her) will realise that he demonstrated his inability adequately.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 08:50
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Trubru,

I am a CRMI and you are unfortunately experiencing one of my typical examples of the modern generation and the most difficult situation for any of us to deal with.

I also believe the advice of fullyspooled is good. However letting someone fail in the environment of the RAF on a training sortie and doing the same thing where we have to deliver in the corporate world are different challenges. I recently had a copilot who was questioning and suggesting a better way to do everything right down to making the tea. After he suggested to the aircraft owner one day we do somethings differently I let him managage a constant descent to visual approach at an international which he completely messed up and made things very uncomfortable for the boss down the back, credibility was restablished. But it is not normally a good idea to subject the pax to the exercise. Fortunately the boss saw exactly what was happening.

If he has been with you for 10 months it may be a good idea to deliver his annual appraisal such that any probation period is extended until he improves his interpersonal skills. Under UK law you can instantly dismiss an employee without any reason upto 12 months from employment. Beyond that you need a track record so it could be worth starting a documented record.

I hope the many copilots who read this will understand that supporting your captain is the most important role they have. Any increase in pressure will sap the captains ability as he will spend too much time worring about what you are going to do next and what problems it will cause him.

Learn to make the tea and do it well, then each time the Capt offers you a new challenge do it just as he asks and do it well. Then in time you will understand what we are talking about.

All the best Trubru, you have my sympathy

MM
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 09:56
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MM
Yes you are right. I have tried exactly what you suggest. Let him make a mess of something AND then demonstate what years of experience can do too. (But do get it right!)
It worked. He was walking around with his tail between his legs........for 5 mins!
It then became a pissing contest with him trying to out do me on everything, tea included!
I sometimes wonder if the "smack in the mush" may actually be the only way!!!
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 10:03
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No offence but we're all very quick to judge the poor co pilot just because he has less experience (you've paid your dues) and because he sits in the right seat and should quote 'know his place'. Or as also stated `typical examples of the modern generation'. There are two sides to every story. Not very CRMy Why is he difficult to work with? In which way have things gone straight to his head? Give examples and maybe it would give a better picture to give better solutions
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 11:22
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Well elsewhere on this site I have read someone claim that the FIRST LESSON, day one on their MCC course was the instruction that there is "no Captain or First Officer anymore!
Only Handling Pilot and Non-Handling Pilot exists these days."

If this is true then there is your answer. Inexperienced pilots actively being encouraged to behave like this. F/O's with a few hundred hours trying to be the Captain and stepping on his toes. In my mind this is compromising the safety of the operation and whoever is teaching this needs to understand the problem they are creating. There still has to be an authority gradient.

Dare I ask... Even as a firm believer in CRM maybe it has gone too far?????
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 13:52
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Good feedback!

Thanks everyone for your positive and constructive feedback.

To me as far as the job of working in a team goes, it is not about who's right but what's right.

There are many team sports in the world with Captains and they are there for a very good reason. I've been taught that a groups decision will 99% of the time be better than that of any individual in that groups own decision, but the first thing a group needs to do in order to function efficiently is to identify/appoint a leader.

There's another 'classic' i try to avoid and I believe that this is probably one of the biggest CRM disasters ever - The Captain doesn't want to listen and the F/O doesn't want to speak up!

I'm very easy going and encourage him to query, but unfortunately the final decision still lays with the skipper until they take the PIC bit out of the law and turn it into PF (Pilot Flying).

I do not reprimand, it hasn't been necessary at all, but I do give advice and constructive criticism. Unfortunately the net result is a childish response followed by a "starboard stare".

For example: We landed with 8 pax the other day at about 19000Lbs, (300Lbs below MLW, had to tanker fuel due costs at the destination), at about 1500ft AGL on final approach he asks me if I think we'll make the turn-off?

Runway details: 5758' long at 1738' elev and 36 deg C and the turn-off is at 2700ft from the landing threshold...

Just busy looking at the figures exactly now, although at the time I made a judgement call based on experience -

According to the QRH Landing speeds and distances under these circumstances:
Vref -122,
Vapp-132,
Actual Landing Distance - 3000ft,
Factored Landing Dist - 5000ft

My answer was: "Maybe if we were empty but not now and we have to consider the passenger comfort, so let her roll along gently and give us greaser (camaraderie)! (good landing)

What happens next: He goes for it anyway, regardless...

As soon as the main wheels touched down he started braking and deploying the thrust reversers at the same time, one small detail though, the nose wheel was still in the air. As soon as the reversers kicked in, he shat himself noticeably followed by a very cool "Oooops" - Luckily he got off the brakes and caught the nose wheel before it smacked into the ground. Was a bit pale myself....

Upon turnaround and backtrack I dared to mention that he must wait for the nose wheel to be on the ground before he starts to brake etc. This was followed by a how dare you tell me type of "What?!!"

This is just one example - Sorry I stuffed up and will never try that again would have meant end of discussion, no hard feelings, we walked away from that one and learnt something - let's have a beer!

That's what I expected...

Last edited by trubru; 10th Dec 2008 at 16:15. Reason: ......
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 17:16
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Trubru....like yourself, I consider myself to be an easy going captain who actively encourages constant communication on the flight deck. I always make it clear to a new FO before a flight that we are there as a team in order to conduct a safe and expeditious flight, however, as commander, the full responsibility for the safety of the a/c and its passengers lies with me. I ensure that if he/she has any concerns during the flight, that they must speak up. That includes any reservations they may have on any of my actions. If I've made a mistake (and gods knows there have been a few!), I'll immediatly holds my hands up and apologise, and I'd expect them to do the same.

In my experience, one of the main problems with over-confidence is that it onsets complacency, which, as we all know, can lead to tragedy. Thankfully, I haven't flown with too many over-confident FO's in the past. However the ones that I have flown with, I found myself nipping it in the bud pretty much straight away in such a way that they realise it's not a character assassination, but purely a professional debrief in the interests of flight safety and good CRM. Otherwise I'd end up with a situation such as yours (i.e - an constant atmosphere in the cockpit which demoralises everyone).

In my opinion I believe you should have a serious chat with your FO, reminding him that you are the Captain of the A/C and as such you are responsible for it's complete safety and that of your passengers - even for his mistakes. Remind him that if anything had gone wrong during the landing roll at that game reserve, it would have been your head on the line. Maybe I'm wrong, but reading between the lines, their seems to be a serious lack of respect here. Ultimately, you need to sort it out sooner rather than later otherwise you're going to end up despising the guy and ironically criticising and nit-picking everything he does.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 17:23
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It's all very simple.

Until this fool changes his attitude, he remains 'pilot not flying' for the duration.

Simple as that.
IF he doesn't like it....tough.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 17:43
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Well elsewhere on this site I have read someone claim that the FIRST LESSON, day one on their MCC course was the instruction that there is "no Captain or First Officer anymore!
Only Handling Pilot and Non-Handling Pilot exists these days."
that was most definitely conceived by Misses Tooey cuz it's a whole lotta Hooey

this "CRM" the way it been bastardized has nothing to do with flying

I like this video a lot it show two grown men just doing the stinking job without ego and BS

This is CRM

YouTube - bac 111 takeoff and landing cockpit view
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 17:55
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I quote 411A, let him be PNF all the time, youŽre the captain, you take the role. CRM is ok and bla, bla bla, but when you get one of those bast..on board better let him know, stay away from me!!!

In your case as no feedback is received and the guy plays "I know everything better than you" just let him know that from now on there is a CRM on board, either you stick to it and shut up or youŽll be the baggage guy from now on. there are many guys going unemployed today with LR45 TR and lots of exerience.
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Old 11th Dec 2008, 01:39
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I was probably the worst kind of co pilot. I was experienced on type, bloody good at what I did, but very keen to move into the left hand seat. I had learnt lots of lessons while in the right seat, but never made any big mistakes, never mucked up a visual approach, always got away with what I was trying to do. This made me a particularly over confident co, but one that could back up the confidence.

Sounds pretty arrogant, and I was I guess, but hey, I was doing the job, and the reality was that I was better than a lot of the Captains that I was flying with at the time. I was also desperate to change seats so that I could run things better than all the guys that I had been stuck with.

I didnt realise any of this until I made the move to the other seat. As much as you can be given responsibility as the co, you just dont have to look at things like a Captain looks at them. I soon learnt that I had been a pretty crap co pilot, not because of my flying skill, that was pretty good, but because I didnt know how to support the Captain. I was actually pretty embarrassed the more that I thought about my time as a co. Thing is that I was never going to realise that until I had my chance to change seats.

Now Im back in the right hand seat on a different type. And now I think Im a pretty good co, because I know what its like sitting over there on the left. I still want to move back over there, and I still put in my two cents worth, but Ive learnt that Ive got a job to do, that it is an important one, and that I am still learning.
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Old 11th Dec 2008, 17:10
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Well said

Well said Julliet. Wise words spoken with the wisdom of 20/20 hindsight as apposed the wisdom of a teanager which we are disciussing.

In contrast to our discussions above, I have flown with an excellent chap recently who is an ex ATC controller from an international airport. You could make a video of how to do it properly just by filming him on any random sector. So there are good guys out there as well, I have never felt better supported when flying.

Just as an aside, a rendetion of this poem before each flight might help "The Poor Co-pilot" Song Lyrics w/Free MP3 Download It is an old poem written by a DC3 chap in the 50s and set to music by an american folk group in the 70s.

Trubru, check your pms.

MM

Last edited by Miles Magister; 11th Dec 2008 at 18:15.
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Old 14th Dec 2008, 06:41
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If I may I would like to add something from my own perspective... I have been very fortunate in my career and at the same time very unfortunate. I have sat in both seats of the aircraft and I am only 25.... I understand and can relate to everything that has been mentioned here thus far.

TruBru... I have always been lead to believe that the CA is the person to set the "tone" or attitude under which work/flying will take place... needless to say I have experienced the best and worst.... I have smiled & laughed my way from gear up to gear down as well as saying nothing outside of the book until cruise...
The most important thing I know is that the CA must always maintain control of setting the tone.
I find it discouraging that your FO is asking non-pertinent questions at 1500 ft...... take back your right to control the attitude in which you work in the cockpit..... a verbal lashing and embarrassment is good medicine for cockiness... I should know I have had plenty.
You may dismiss all of this if you feel that my age or lack of "experience" deems me naive.
Good luck Tru and keep it safe Bru!
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Old 16th Dec 2008, 07:03
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IF he's as bad as you say, then he's probably peeing the pax off as well... And ATC... And the engineers... And, and...

In your shoes (and presuming that you are effectively running the operation, as I imagine you are), then it's time for a written warning, and then the sack if he doesn't shape up fast.

Uncomfortable atmospheres on the flight deck mean trouble, and in the environment you're in, you need all the cards stacked in your favour.

If it was me? I'd probably just get rid. There's no shortage of good right-seaters at the moment...
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Old 16th Dec 2008, 16:59
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reprimands that are not attacks

I offer the following non-aviation-specific comment in the hope that it is helpful in this situation too, and I hope noone objects:
Awhile back I got sent on a management course which had a segment on how to reprimand someone touchy who has done the wrong thing without (or with reduced chance, anyway...) that you will seem to be attacking them directly.
The overall idea is to make them realise they've done it wrong themselves. The suggested technique is to ask them what is the previously agreed action, or procedure, or ethos, or whatever (your approach briefing, company SOPs, aircraft limits, etc), and to discuss this with them until they've acknowledged the agreement to do one thing (can be pretty short "Do you recall our plan?"). Then state what they actually did, and ask if that meets the agreement (if you are doing this right, it won't and they won't be able to argue without it being obvious rubbish). Then state or discuss how to do the agreed thing in future, and ensure they agree with it.
Then they will see the difference between their view and reality, and feel a commitment to the agreement you manoeuvre them into making.

It sounds like a nightmare situation and I hope you resolve it well.
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Old 16th Dec 2008, 20:07
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My suggestion:

Recall a few of the moments when you've been particularily unhappy with his performance. Preferably in different areas. Perhaps planning, handling, communication, attitude etc.

Why were you annoyed? - find the problem
What did he do? - narrow it down to the core
Were there any risks involved and if so did they grow due to his actions or behaviour? - produce motivation
Are there different methods to go about the same problem that would have been better (here you must look att all different ways to do something, you way might not be the best)? - look at all the loopholes
How did you behave? - would he have behaved differently if you'd done it any other way?

Ask yourself a couple of questions like this and write it down.
Then take your time to have proper sitdown with him, on ground in a relaxed area (quiet area of a hotel lounge after having changed into civil clothes). Get him comfortable and relaxed. Start asking him what he thinks is a good approach to things, use anecdotes from your previous career as a basis for discussion. Keep control of the conversation if he tries to stray off the topic. As he softens up, ask him if there are any situations between him and you that he feels could have resulted in something better. When he's had his say, ask him about the situations you've written and ask questions like "were you really hapy with that approach?" or "would you've done it differently today?"

The trick is to confront him in such a way that he doesn't understand that he's being confronted and ask the questions so that he's forced to look at himself and give himself critisism. It's tough to take critique and it's really difficult to give critique. You have to prepare him for it for him to be able to swallow some of the tasty bits you have in store for him. And if you have thought about a few situations on forehand and written them down, you'll have the upper hand.

I've used a similar type of confrontation when I want to take up things with my captains that I haven't been happy with and it tends to work. It bluntens the edge of the sharp critique sword so to say...

Best of luck.
/LnS
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