Name & Shame - Operating Commercial Flights on Private Aircraft!!!
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Name & Shame - Operating Commercial Flights on Private Aircraft!!!
While the industry seems to be slowing down, I still hear about more and more flights taking place in the UK and probably all over Europe with Operators / Brokers / Aircraft Owners / End Users blatantly selling Privately Registered aircraft for charter.
Im not sure how many of you are in agreement with this or are prepared to try and tighten up this illegal activity but I thought it would be a good start to see what others in the industry may have experienced in the hope to try and crack down on any people, companies or aircraft in a name & shame exercise?
Not that I expect any feedback from those who may be offing this service, but have no doubt that your out there reading this NOW!!!
Im not sure how many of you are in agreement with this or are prepared to try and tighten up this illegal activity but I thought it would be a good start to see what others in the industry may have experienced in the hope to try and crack down on any people, companies or aircraft in a name & shame exercise?
Not that I expect any feedback from those who may be offing this service, but have no doubt that your out there reading this NOW!!!
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Not sure if this is the forum for this sort of thing, and more importantly what sort of action really comes of internet tittle tattle, however.........
....it is time for companies, Accountable Managers etc to really start lobbying the CAA to do something about this, its a cancer that threatens our very existance and is happening more or less every day at an airport near you.
Plenty of talking shops, but very little action, i'm game if anyone else is??
....it is time for companies, Accountable Managers etc to really start lobbying the CAA to do something about this, its a cancer that threatens our very existance and is happening more or less every day at an airport near you.
Plenty of talking shops, but very little action, i'm game if anyone else is??
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If they are operating illegally then the courts are the place to decide! Whether they are is the big question and im not so sure about that.
Sounds more like sour grapes and lets protect our back yard and certainly nothing to do with safety.
Pace
Sounds more like sour grapes and lets protect our back yard and certainly nothing to do with safety.
Pace
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Yeah, go on FED put up the names so we can see how good yer info is!
Hold on, only two posts to your name.... and ..............Slow today, I can usually spot the journo miles off.
Hold on, only two posts to your name.... and ..............Slow today, I can usually spot the journo miles off.
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Ten West, with all due respect, if you have ever dealt with the CAA's one man and his dog's 'enforcement' division in regard to GA, you will realise we are fighting a losing battle.
Its not sour grapes, why pay for an AOC and all the infrastructure that goes with it when you can buy a jet, run it on a shoestring and provide charters without all the expense of post holders etc.
Already this thread gives an indication why we are fighting a losing battle.
Its not sour grapes, why pay for an AOC and all the infrastructure that goes with it when you can buy a jet, run it on a shoestring and provide charters without all the expense of post holders etc.
Already this thread gives an indication why we are fighting a losing battle.
Last edited by Duck Rogers; 25th Nov 2008 at 21:28. Reason: I'm a spelling nazi.
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Its not sour grapes, why pay for an AOC and all the infrastructure that goes with it when you can buy a jet, run it on a shoestring and provide charters without all the expense of post holders etc.
Pace
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Federation
All good stuff and I sympathize with a genuine AOC holder, if they are effected by others who are breaking the "rules".
What are the rules?? If anyone knows the rules please post here in layman's terms.
If I am the owner of a private aircraft and sell a share to a "friend" say for £ 10 then that share holder flies on the aircraft, is that illegal??? As far as payment goes towards costs, how would you track the original source?
I am not involved in charters so cant speak from experience.
All good stuff and I sympathize with a genuine AOC holder, if they are effected by others who are breaking the "rules".
What are the rules?? If anyone knows the rules please post here in layman's terms.
If I am the owner of a private aircraft and sell a share to a "friend" say for £ 10 then that share holder flies on the aircraft, is that illegal??? As far as payment goes towards costs, how would you track the original source?
I am not involved in charters so cant speak from experience.
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What do we do with AOC holders that employ aircraft NOT even on a european register, crewed with 2 over 65 year old dudes? I personally know of such a case. Close the company down, so that quite a few fellow pilots loose their jobs?
Face the fact that you have to live with it. It was always so and will always be so. The Authorities dont WANT to take them on, because they usually have good lawyers. German authority lost on one such case long time ago and never stepped in after that one I`m led to believe. Maybe EASA could do something about it, but from what I hear they are drowning in their own legislation already.
Face the fact that you have to live with it. It was always so and will always be so. The Authorities dont WANT to take them on, because they usually have good lawyers. German authority lost on one such case long time ago and never stepped in after that one I`m led to believe. Maybe EASA could do something about it, but from what I hear they are drowning in their own legislation already.
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Spunky Monkey
No I am not saying that illegal charter is ok. I am saying that it is legal for a company who do not have usage that warrants outright ownership of an aircraft to lease an aircraft for say 50 to 100 hrs.
They then employ their own crew to fly it and deal with the running of that aircraft while its in their hands.
I am sure if you were a business owner and used your corporate jet as a business tool you would lease in a temporary replacement were you unlucky enough to have a truck run into the wing and ground the aircraft for 6 months. I am sure you would not want to double your costs by pulling in an AOC operator to cover that six months.
As for the crew you use you would have to make sure they were licenced to fly that aircraft and had the hours to meet the insurance requirements.
As to the Biggin Hill crash we are still awaiting the AAIB reports. Sadly private and AOC aircraft crash and kill people. Equally there are some superbly run private operations and diabolical AOC operations and visa versa.
If you know of private aircraft being used for illegal air taxi work report them and the CAA will determine if they have a case to bring against them.
As for legitimate companies going to the wall every day dont blame private aircraft for that! We are in a recession and there are companies going to the wall across the board and in every industry unless you are in the debt collection industry
Pace
No I am not saying that illegal charter is ok. I am saying that it is legal for a company who do not have usage that warrants outright ownership of an aircraft to lease an aircraft for say 50 to 100 hrs.
They then employ their own crew to fly it and deal with the running of that aircraft while its in their hands.
I am sure if you were a business owner and used your corporate jet as a business tool you would lease in a temporary replacement were you unlucky enough to have a truck run into the wing and ground the aircraft for 6 months. I am sure you would not want to double your costs by pulling in an AOC operator to cover that six months.
As for the crew you use you would have to make sure they were licenced to fly that aircraft and had the hours to meet the insurance requirements.
As to the Biggin Hill crash we are still awaiting the AAIB reports. Sadly private and AOC aircraft crash and kill people. Equally there are some superbly run private operations and diabolical AOC operations and visa versa.
If you know of private aircraft being used for illegal air taxi work report them and the CAA will determine if they have a case to bring against them.
As for legitimate companies going to the wall every day dont blame private aircraft for that! We are in a recession and there are companies going to the wall across the board and in every industry unless you are in the debt collection industry
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Nov 2008 at 08:47.
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I would agree with naming them but would also suggest that you put in info to CAA at the same time.
Doesn't do that much good reporting to CAA, but maybe if it is public then they might take action.
And a point to remember is that a passanger killed or injured on a illegal charter could well receive NO insurance. That is fine if they know they are taking the risk but how many do.
We reported a flight to the CAA gave the pilots details, the registration, the home base, what time it was arriving back into the UK. We gave passanger details and confirmed the passanger had gone through a broker and believed he was on legal flight. Gave CAA 5 hours notice. They were "to busy".
Doesn't do that much good reporting to CAA, but maybe if it is public then they might take action.
And a point to remember is that a passanger killed or injured on a illegal charter could well receive NO insurance. That is fine if they know they are taking the risk but how many do.
We reported a flight to the CAA gave the pilots details, the registration, the home base, what time it was arriving back into the UK. We gave passanger details and confirmed the passanger had gone through a broker and believed he was on legal flight. Gave CAA 5 hours notice. They were "to busy".
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They were "to busy".
I just hope I never ever have to return to the lows of that. Having been DO and MM for 3 outfits, I´m just to desillusionized about them...
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I would agree with naming them but would also suggest that you put in info to CAA at the same time.
You cannot make such a list without hard proved evidence and without exposing yourself to liability laws.
The only option you have is to report a suspected illegal air taxi flight to the relevant authorities for them to investigate and to pass through their own legal department to determine whether there is a case to answer.
As in any law there are grey areas or loopholes which will legitimately be exploited. You cannot blame people for that exploitation. I am sure when you visit your accountant he will try and advise you how best to minimise your tax legally he will not try and get you to pay as much tax to the inland revenue as he possibly can.
Pace
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You cannot make such a list without hard proved evidence and without exposing yourself to liability laws.
The only option you have is to report a suspected illegal air taxi flight to the relevant authorities for them to investigate and to pass through their own legal department to determine whether there is a case to answer.
As in any law there are grey areas or loopholes which will legitimately be exploited. You cannot blame people for that exploitation. I am sure when you visit your accountant he will try and advise you how best to minimise your tax legally he will not try and get you to pay as much tax to the inland revenue as he possibly can.
The only option you have is to report a suspected illegal air taxi flight to the relevant authorities for them to investigate and to pass through their own legal department to determine whether there is a case to answer.
As in any law there are grey areas or loopholes which will legitimately be exploited. You cannot blame people for that exploitation. I am sure when you visit your accountant he will try and advise you how best to minimise your tax legally he will not try and get you to pay as much tax to the inland revenue as he possibly can.
PACE is absolutely right.
Some kind of 'trial by mob' (which is what this would ultimately descend into) is an utterly inappropriate way to deal with this problem.
If anyone believes that they know of a company or individual undertaking public transport work without an AOC, then I would suggest that they have an obligation to notify the CAA.
The CAA once informed will carry out an investigation and in the event of PROVEN wrongdoing, will prosecute those responsible.
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I have given hard evidence to the feds more than once. a £1500 fine 12 months after the event seems not to deter the cowboys.
Pace - sour grapes - not at all....just would like the governing body to enforce the rules they set. Lease the aircraft for the day, pay the pilot separately etc...that's just boll%4ks. It goes on all the time and the d1ckheads who actually fly the aircraft are the real culprits in this. Greedy pilots who can't get a proper job.
....And don't even think about suggesting that these poor pilots are just trying to make a living. That is the same as a surgeon who performs illegal operations to remove a kidney from someone who is desperate for money. It's not ethical, nor are illegal charters.
Pace - sour grapes - not at all....just would like the governing body to enforce the rules they set. Lease the aircraft for the day, pay the pilot separately etc...that's just boll%4ks. It goes on all the time and the d1ckheads who actually fly the aircraft are the real culprits in this. Greedy pilots who can't get a proper job.
....And don't even think about suggesting that these poor pilots are just trying to make a living. That is the same as a surgeon who performs illegal operations to remove a kidney from someone who is desperate for money. It's not ethical, nor are illegal charters.
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If you are a member of a trade associations such BBGA, BACA & EBAA, report to/through your association. I did this via the EBAA & NBAA (member of both associations) for a US operator offering Medivac flts with a non 135 N reg LR35. The Feds out of FRA bounced them & they got sorted in their FL home base courts by the FAA, they were also outed by the NBAA & industry media.
A small victory, but a victory never the less
A small victory, but a victory never the less
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It goes on all the time and the d1ckheads who actually fly the aircraft are the real culprits in this. Greedy pilots who can't get a proper job.
Not sure what pilots you are referring to? are you talking about unqualified pilots such as a PPL flying elegal air taxi work or an ATP type rated who happens to have chosen the corporate route rather than the AOC route?
There are very wealthy owners who have a mass of legal advice and get revenue to their aircraft.
Often these aircraft are better maintained and flown to at least equal standards as AOC operations.
There are also some AOC operations which have poor pilots and shoddy maintenance. I could name a few and a few notable accident examples spring to mind
The reasons for accidents are never Illegal air taxi, they are always pilot or aircraft induced ie poor maintenance or piloting skills and that can and does happen in both camps private or AOC.
What I am trying to say here is that you cannot paint all private operations as shoddy or cowboyish because they are not although some are.
Neither can you hold up a glowing torch to AOC operations because while some deserve that accolade many do not.
Each accident has to be viewed in its own right and lessons learnt from that.
While the Biggin crash may or may not be deemed as "illegal operation" when the AAIB reports come out that will not be the cause of the crash .
That will be poor piloting skills or an aircraft fault or a mixture of both.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th Nov 2008 at 14:13.
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Pace, what naive rose tinted specs you see through, do you have to keep a spare pair in your flight bag, or is that only for AOC Ops.
Aircraft "rented out" without an AOC are done so because it is a shortcut to having BOTH procedural and manpower accountability - FACT.
Aircraft "rented out" without an AOC are done so because it is a shortcut to having BOTH procedural and manpower accountability - FACT.
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Pace - What part illegal are you finding it difficult to comprehend? I'm sure the Nigerian in the Nissan is quite a reasonable driver, and his car in good servicable order, but if he is touting for business, it's illegal.
If caught someone doing illegal charters, I would punch the pilot, then call the Police, then call the CAA. IT'S ILLEGAL and takes food off the table of those who work to the rules.
All of the ones that partake in dodgy charters. Please don't insult my intelligence by trying to disguise illegal charters with legal corporate operations. I know the difference, so do you, and so do the idiots who claim not to know who partake in illegal charters. Ignorance is not acceptable in the aviation industry. If the CAA fined these morons £30k instead of £1'500 then it would help to deter them. there is simply no excuse for it.
FYI - I do name and shame, and have contacted a number of these "operators" sans AOC to let them know that I, and many others know what they are doing. Shame the CAA don't do it.
Perhaps I have spoken to you pace? - sounds like I either have, or will. Thou protesteth too much not be on the dodgy list me thinks.
If caught someone doing illegal charters, I would punch the pilot, then call the Police, then call the CAA. IT'S ILLEGAL
and takes food off the table of those who work to the rules.
Not sure what pilots you are referring to? are you talking about unqualified pilots such as a PPL flying elegal air taxi work or an ATP type rated who happens to have chosen the corporate route rather than the AOC route?
FYI - I do name and shame, and have contacted a number of these "operators" sans AOC to let them know that I, and many others know what they are doing. Shame the CAA don't do it.
Perhaps I have spoken to you pace? - sounds like I either have, or will. Thou protesteth too much not be on the dodgy list me thinks.