Wake Turbulence - Did you know...?
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AMEX,
I don´t know where you fly, where I fly (mostly europe) I´ll be told either by the plate or ATC how quick to fly (yeah I´m the captain, still I like the Idea of complying to instructions).
I don´t know where you fly, where I fly (mostly europe) I´ll be told either by the plate or ATC how quick to fly (yeah I´m the captain, still I like the Idea of complying to instructions).
I was not pointing my finger at BelArgUSA as I have read his post and understood it too. But since we were on an educational post, it appeared fair to mention that one has to realise all the implications of doing things one way or another.
I have no doubt I would have been clearer with you and others, whilst having a few beers.
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I'm just happy with keeping the needles somewhere on the dial. Dot up, couple of dots down, lurch left, stagger right, hit the tarmac. Delighted!
Pace
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or as my fellow cocaptain uses to say:
"more or less established"
@AMEX: "As far as I know, nobody asks you to fly at a certain speed when passing the threshold."
Well, there is a booklet that came with the airplane.... now seriously, I got you a bit wrong. Sorry.
"more or less established"
@AMEX: "As far as I know, nobody asks you to fly at a certain speed when passing the threshold."
Well, there is a booklet that came with the airplane.... now seriously, I got you a bit wrong. Sorry.
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To BelArgUSA
Actually I have a question... Say you re riding the glide one dot above behind an MD11 (example provided). How do you know the other guy ahead of you is not doing the same ? TCAS range Vs relative altitude doesn't make it easy to work out.
Actually I have a question... Say you re riding the glide one dot above behind an MD11 (example provided). How do you know the other guy ahead of you is not doing the same ? TCAS range Vs relative altitude doesn't make it easy to work out.
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@his dudeness I think that Amex meant that ATC does not require you to fly a speed at threshold, at most it will be at 4Nm final... Or minimum approach speed when established, but never fly 140 to touchdown...
Nevertheless, one dot high is as useless as possible, since like amex mentionned, you have no clue if the one in front is flying one dot high as well.. I was flying out of Ontario,Ca some time ago, watching these 4 holers landing and taking off, I never saw one touching down after the preceeding mark..Could be a domino effect after 5 heavy landing in a row...
Across my carreer, i never saw either ops manual, PartB, Sop's writing that ones has to fly one dot above when following an Heavy, increase the distance , Yes, timing before take Off, yes but not this...mind you I'm quite young in the business, only 20 years..So I have a lot still to see and learn..
Nevertheless, one dot high is as useless as possible, since like amex mentionned, you have no clue if the one in front is flying one dot high as well.. I was flying out of Ontario,Ca some time ago, watching these 4 holers landing and taking off, I never saw one touching down after the preceeding mark..Could be a domino effect after 5 heavy landing in a row...
Across my carreer, i never saw either ops manual, PartB, Sop's writing that ones has to fly one dot above when following an Heavy, increase the distance , Yes, timing before take Off, yes but not this...mind you I'm quite young in the business, only 20 years..So I have a lot still to see and learn..
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It’s funny how things vary!! In my airline flying one dot above the G/S would put you right on the limits of an unstable approach and you would have to G/A if you drifted any higher. Thats why we would fly on the G/S but remain 5 NM behind the heavy, so you are clear of wake turbulence.
Guess my airline thinks runway overruns happen more often than accidents due to wake turbulence so they think there is more danger of flying high and landing deep rather than just following at 5 miles.
Landing performance is calculated on you crossing the threshold at 50 ft. 1 Dot high and you are invalidating this performance. If you did over-run not sure how the authorities would view this.
We don't quite go for forced arrivals but there is very much a culture of getting it on in the right spot!
I have not come across anyone who would intentionally fly one dot high, guess our SOP's are just a lot more prescriptive. That and a very active flight data monitoring deptartment!!!
Guess my airline thinks runway overruns happen more often than accidents due to wake turbulence so they think there is more danger of flying high and landing deep rather than just following at 5 miles.
Landing performance is calculated on you crossing the threshold at 50 ft. 1 Dot high and you are invalidating this performance. If you did over-run not sure how the authorities would view this.
We don't quite go for forced arrivals but there is very much a culture of getting it on in the right spot!
I have not come across anyone who would intentionally fly one dot high, guess our SOP's are just a lot more prescriptive. That and a very active flight data monitoring deptartment!!!
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to AMEX -
How do I know the MD-11 is not 1 dot above G/S...?
xxx
Good question. Beware that even though I fly an old whale 747-200, following another heavy, anything 1011, MD-11, 777, is a concern even for a 747. Being in the wake of these guys, is not comfortable.
xxx
I fly generally to Barajas or Fiumicino. You know their ATC does not always provide adequate separation, their thought is that a 747 "can handle any wake turbulence better than any smaller airplane"... So they seem not to be too concerned. It has spilled my last before-landing-expresso occasionally.
xxx
I will never deliberately fly above a G/S without reason, if no "heavy traffic" in front of me. My own "manual approach" (for practice many of you seem to deny me) standards is "ON G/S, up to 1/2 dot above" as personal limit. But if I follow a pair of heavies, I often suspect one might be himself above G/S, if wind is rather calm, in ideal visual conditions and long runway.
xxx
A word also, is "how long the runway". If I think of a 12,000 ft runway as extremely long and far from limiting for my 747, it certainly is for you in a small private jet. I wrote this thread primarily for pilots of smaller airplanes, and as a courtesy for your passengers.
xxx
If BA 038 had been above the G/S when landing at EGLL, they might still have G-YMMM flying revenue. Lucky these guys made it, I admire the outcome of the way they handled the situation.
xxx
A last word from this "old fart" - when I fly, say to a 5,000 runway in my little Piper L-21, how come I do not try to touch down 300 feet behind the threshold... And why is it that my dentist friend retracts his gear of his Marchetti SF-260 right after takeoff, when he still has 3 or 4,000 feet left to land (engine failure) in front of him...
xxx
Let's be practical, friends... as circumstances dictate.
SOPs are to be adapted when required. Spells "airmanship"...
Happy contrails
xxx
Good question. Beware that even though I fly an old whale 747-200, following another heavy, anything 1011, MD-11, 777, is a concern even for a 747. Being in the wake of these guys, is not comfortable.
xxx
I fly generally to Barajas or Fiumicino. You know their ATC does not always provide adequate separation, their thought is that a 747 "can handle any wake turbulence better than any smaller airplane"... So they seem not to be too concerned. It has spilled my last before-landing-expresso occasionally.
xxx
I will never deliberately fly above a G/S without reason, if no "heavy traffic" in front of me. My own "manual approach" (for practice many of you seem to deny me) standards is "ON G/S, up to 1/2 dot above" as personal limit. But if I follow a pair of heavies, I often suspect one might be himself above G/S, if wind is rather calm, in ideal visual conditions and long runway.
xxx
A word also, is "how long the runway". If I think of a 12,000 ft runway as extremely long and far from limiting for my 747, it certainly is for you in a small private jet. I wrote this thread primarily for pilots of smaller airplanes, and as a courtesy for your passengers.
xxx
If BA 038 had been above the G/S when landing at EGLL, they might still have G-YMMM flying revenue. Lucky these guys made it, I admire the outcome of the way they handled the situation.
xxx
A last word from this "old fart" - when I fly, say to a 5,000 runway in my little Piper L-21, how come I do not try to touch down 300 feet behind the threshold... And why is it that my dentist friend retracts his gear of his Marchetti SF-260 right after takeoff, when he still has 3 or 4,000 feet left to land (engine failure) in front of him...
xxx
Let's be practical, friends... as circumstances dictate.
SOPs are to be adapted when required. Spells "airmanship"...
Happy contrails
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Let's be practical, friends... as circumstances dictate.
SOPs are to be adapted when required. Spells "airmanship"...
SOPs are to be adapted when required. Spells "airmanship"...
You would be shot at dawn if you posted that in some of the forums here and dared to promote thinking pilots
Though I tend to agree with youPace
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Señor Pace -
xxx
I have a bullet-proof vest. I do not mind getting fired by now...!
One Madrid trip left for me, so 1 landing.
I suspect I will land also on the return sector...
Will be my last, at least in a 747. Will NOT be AUTOLAND...
xxx
And I will bust another rule, after the final landing. Drinking in uniform.
I plan to open a few bottles of Moët & Chandon with the crew in the plane.
Whether some SLF still left in the plane report me... honest I do not care.
And if the chief pilot and director of operations show up, they will join us.
... to fire me maybe, or give me my gold Rolex...!
xxx
Happy (hips) contrails (burp)
xxx
I have a bullet-proof vest. I do not mind getting fired by now...!
One Madrid trip left for me, so 1 landing.
I suspect I will land also on the return sector...
Will be my last, at least in a 747. Will NOT be AUTOLAND...
xxx
And I will bust another rule, after the final landing. Drinking in uniform.
I plan to open a few bottles of Moët & Chandon with the crew in the plane.
Whether some SLF still left in the plane report me... honest I do not care.
And if the chief pilot and director of operations show up, they will join us.
... to fire me maybe, or give me my gold Rolex...!
xxx
Happy (hips) contrails (burp)
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I still don't understand the pb as wake turbulences are not remaining on the preceding aircraft's path... In fact, the only reason I see for WT to be on the GS would be that the preceding is actually flying above it... or that you land with a goof tailwind.
Regarding the BA 38, why not suggesting to raise up all GS to let's say 10 degrees, this would allow loads of fuel saving as we could shut down engines passing the IAF. Of course this would just be airmanship and smart interpretation of what can't be written in the SOPs... (I'm kidding BelArg..)
Regarding the BA 38, why not suggesting to raise up all GS to let's say 10 degrees, this would allow loads of fuel saving as we could shut down engines passing the IAF. Of course this would just be airmanship and smart interpretation of what can't be written in the SOPs... (I'm kidding BelArg..)
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Last post on that topic for me.
Because I cannot say or know what the preceding traffic is doing (such as riding high on the glide) other than monitoring his distance based on the TCAS, I cannot conclude that this is a good solution.
Then what would I do if say, I was following a friend I know who rides the glide high.... Ride it even higher ?
Also, if everybody was doing the same, then it would be just the same as when everyone is flying an ILS, on the glide. Only not as safe and getting pretty close to the limit of what is defined as an unstable approach, (with for consequence, the requirement to perform a G/A just like it was mentioned by a previous poster.
My final point and I rejoin sispanys ria's comment...
That's how I see it. Basically with no certainty of "avoiding" wake turbulences, we can be pretty sure that traffic following an aircraft behind a "high Rider" is more likely to encounter some.
So as far as I am concerned, I do not see enough positive points versus the negative ones and I ll stick with my TCAS.
On that one, safe flying to all.
Because I cannot say or know what the preceding traffic is doing (such as riding high on the glide) other than monitoring his distance based on the TCAS, I cannot conclude that this is a good solution.
Then what would I do if say, I was following a friend I know who rides the glide high.... Ride it even higher ?
Also, if everybody was doing the same, then it would be just the same as when everyone is flying an ILS, on the glide. Only not as safe and getting pretty close to the limit of what is defined as an unstable approach, (with for consequence, the requirement to perform a G/A just like it was mentioned by a previous poster.
My final point and I rejoin sispanys ria's comment...
I still don't understand the pb as wake turbulences are not remaining on the preceding aircraft's path... In fact, the only reason I see for WT to be on the GS would be that the preceding is actually flying above it... or that you land with a goof tailwind.
So as far as I am concerned, I do not see enough positive points versus the negative ones and I ll stick with my TCAS.
On that one, safe flying to all.
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Amex has it right...
If the guy in front was riding one dot high, does that mean I have to be two dots high? What about the guy behind me? As far as I am concerned, never got wake turbulance on a 3 degree glideslope, but on a Visual behind a 737 into LAX the GIV rolled 3 times to 90 degrees, almost took the controls from the captain, he wasn't pushing, just cross controlling.....None the less...if you want to keep me happy, keep your friggin speed up....
