Piaggio Avante...!!??
1) It's Italian
2) It's Italian
But seriously, they are fast, unique, and are/were pretty much handbuilt. Apparently the QA is getting better though, and they have a very distinct sound.
2) It's Italian
But seriously, they are fast, unique, and are/were pretty much handbuilt. Apparently the QA is getting better though, and they have a very distinct sound.
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I flew one for a thousand hours or so.
They have about the same fuel burn as a King Air 200, with a wider and taller cabin, much quieter cabin, certainly more comfortable. It goes to FL410, and cruises about 370 TAS. Piaggio likes to say it does more (they say 395, and a bit more than that for the Piaggio Avanti II)...but realistically 370.
It's got no antiskid and it has carbon brakes that aren't very effective when cold, and very effective when hot...there aren't many avanti pilots who haven't flatspotted tires, as a result.
It lands fast for a turboprop...more like Lear speeds. The props do have one big advantage, though. You can hold speed until short final if need be, then get rid of it by coming back to idle; the propellers slow you down in a big hurry. This makes merging with fast traffic at busy metro areas a snap.
It comes with a decent avionics suite and a good autopilot. It's got it's drawbacks, too...but overall not a bad airplane.
They have about the same fuel burn as a King Air 200, with a wider and taller cabin, much quieter cabin, certainly more comfortable. It goes to FL410, and cruises about 370 TAS. Piaggio likes to say it does more (they say 395, and a bit more than that for the Piaggio Avanti II)...but realistically 370.
It's got no antiskid and it has carbon brakes that aren't very effective when cold, and very effective when hot...there aren't many avanti pilots who haven't flatspotted tires, as a result.
It lands fast for a turboprop...more like Lear speeds. The props do have one big advantage, though. You can hold speed until short final if need be, then get rid of it by coming back to idle; the propellers slow you down in a big hurry. This makes merging with fast traffic at busy metro areas a snap.
It comes with a decent avionics suite and a good autopilot. It's got it's drawbacks, too...but overall not a bad airplane.
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Guppy, your full of it...yeah you have a thousand hours in one(lol)....only one way you could do that...so please tell us where you live....For those that want to know. It will get up into the 30s and do 380, according to people that ACTUALY fly the plane. Great cabin, turboprop fuel burns. Up front buy in isn't cheap, and it's still not a jet, but some think it's close. I am not sure of the range, so ask someone who actualy knows. Personaly I think it's pretty neat, but I would rather fly a Citation Encore/Ultra and do 440kts at Fl430.
As far as draw backs, besides the capital cost...it's a turboprop...that means props, oil pressure return lines, governors ect...having personaly had a return line leak on me...required a landing...never would have happened in a jet..and in a jet you can fly higher, out climb the ice better, get over the storms, ect.
As far as draw backs, besides the capital cost...it's a turboprop...that means props, oil pressure return lines, governors ect...having personaly had a return line leak on me...required a landing...never would have happened in a jet..and in a jet you can fly higher, out climb the ice better, get over the storms, ect.
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What exactly is an "oil pressure return line?"
You do understand that all engines utilize oil, and oil is returned to the cooler and pump in one way or another, right? You do understand that turbojets utilize the same functions and same methods, do you not?
You had an "oil pressure return line" leak on you, did you? That must have been scaaaary. Did the pilot tell you about it, or did you figure it out for yourself?
Yes, there's only one way to have a thousand hours of piloting experience in the airplane, and that's to have flown it for a thousand hours, which I did, you dunce.
Range depends on the passenger load, but typically 3 1/2 hours to 4 hours at 370 kts, before accounting for wind.
Oil leaks don't occur in turbojet equipment, you say? Have you ever been closer to an airplane than your microsoft flight simulator? Certainly from your commentary it would seem not.
You're aware that turbojet engines utilize governors too, aren't you? Imagine that. Oil return lines (not oil pressure return lines...it's the oil we're interestedin returning to the resorvoir, not the pressure) too. Who'd have guessed?
Certainly not YOU!!
How, exactly, does climbing higher, "out climbing the ice better," and getting over storms prevent this terrifying prospect of an oil leak?
Interesting you mentioned the slowtation...we often passed them, while flying overhead...at a lower fuel consumption, a bigger and quieter cabin, and better maintenance reliabiity. Oh, the horror!
You do understand that all engines utilize oil, and oil is returned to the cooler and pump in one way or another, right? You do understand that turbojets utilize the same functions and same methods, do you not?
You had an "oil pressure return line" leak on you, did you? That must have been scaaaary. Did the pilot tell you about it, or did you figure it out for yourself?
Yes, there's only one way to have a thousand hours of piloting experience in the airplane, and that's to have flown it for a thousand hours, which I did, you dunce.
Range depends on the passenger load, but typically 3 1/2 hours to 4 hours at 370 kts, before accounting for wind.
Oil leaks don't occur in turbojet equipment, you say? Have you ever been closer to an airplane than your microsoft flight simulator? Certainly from your commentary it would seem not.
You're aware that turbojet engines utilize governors too, aren't you? Imagine that. Oil return lines (not oil pressure return lines...it's the oil we're interestedin returning to the resorvoir, not the pressure) too. Who'd have guessed?
Certainly not YOU!!
...having personaly had a return line leak on me...required a landing...never would have happened in a jet..and in a jet you can fly higher, out climb the ice better, get over the storms, ect.
Interesting you mentioned the slowtation...we often passed them, while flying overhead...at a lower fuel consumption, a bigger and quieter cabin, and better maintenance reliabiity. Oh, the horror!
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Avanti
This is a very good aircraft, turbo-prop operating costs and jet performance. I have looked into this aircraft for a customer and have lots of information, let me know if you are interested in the data.
You can get an approved mod to use on unprepared strips.
Earlier delivery positions are out there. Baggage bay a little small, however storage area opposite the lavatory. Three interior configs available.
You can get an approved mod to use on unprepared strips.
Earlier delivery positions are out there. Baggage bay a little small, however storage area opposite the lavatory. Three interior configs available.
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Excellent Guppy ! Some people need to be dragged into reality!
I fly the Avanti 1 which is close to the two excepting the collins and some engine tweaks.
It is what it is, a slightly pricey turboprop that goes to FL400 , is pretty quiet, and is fast. I know the 2 is faster than the 1, it doesnt drive around the airport the best but flies well. Short wings but high loading, lands fast (Vref of 120 Flaps down or 130 mid) for a TP, the entire fuselage is a lifting device , highly aerodynamic and a decent cabin size for its class.
Its not something that I enjoy going into short strips with . I like 4000 plus !
For a purchase it really depends on what kind of flying the owner wants to do.
As previously stated, its Italian and hand built for the most part. Some things are very dinky and "cheap" (e.g. baggage door latch exterior)
I fly in the USa and there it is a FAR 23 a/c .
I fly the Avanti 1 which is close to the two excepting the collins and some engine tweaks.
It is what it is, a slightly pricey turboprop that goes to FL400 , is pretty quiet, and is fast. I know the 2 is faster than the 1, it doesnt drive around the airport the best but flies well. Short wings but high loading, lands fast (Vref of 120 Flaps down or 130 mid) for a TP, the entire fuselage is a lifting device , highly aerodynamic and a decent cabin size for its class.
Its not something that I enjoy going into short strips with . I like 4000 plus !
For a purchase it really depends on what kind of flying the owner wants to do.
As previously stated, its Italian and hand built for the most part. Some things are very dinky and "cheap" (e.g. baggage door latch exterior)
I fly in the USa and there it is a FAR 23 a/c .
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Placement of items inside the lav isn't uncommon, especially items such as ski's. However, the lav is also an occupiable, belted seat (and a comfortable one, incidentally). The coat closet in the lav area is available for small items, but it's generally where one puts the spare drinks and snacks for stocking the airplane on the road.
The airplane isn't really a rough field airplane. The propellers already face enough damage potential and corrosion potential (being in the hot exhaust stream). The airplane flies fast enough that it's not the same as operating a King Air from a rough strip. The P.180 should be operated from prepared surfaces, and surfaces not as short as the factory suggests.
The airplane isn't really a rough field airplane. The propellers already face enough damage potential and corrosion potential (being in the hot exhaust stream). The airplane flies fast enough that it's not the same as operating a King Air from a rough strip. The P.180 should be operated from prepared surfaces, and surfaces not as short as the factory suggests.
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Guppy...oil goes to the governer to make the props move...that oil get's to go back to the engine in a return line...that was the line that failed at an O ring junction between two lines. ...and like all Turboprops...should one of those o rings between lines fail, it dumps all the engine oil. So your sarcasm, idiocy, thread hijacking aside...I mearly meant to point out jets, not having props, ...no governer issues, no oil line issues, no blades getting slung or out of balance...no ice to accumulate, ect ect...have some safety advantages over turboprops. Since I have personaly bought, maintained, and flew both jets and turboprops extensively...fuel burns aside...spending $4 mil on a jet vs $4 mil on a turboprop is an easy choice. Since jets climb faster then turboprops, jets don't accumulate ice as easily, and can generaly get over bad weather, and fly above it...limiting exposure to turbulance, ice, lightning, hail, ect ect. Personaly for a corporate gig, once the turboprop hit's $2 mil, I think it's silly to not consider a jet.
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You haven't flown or maintained aircraft; you're SSG, the banned impersonator. Everybody knows that.
Most certainly turbojet engines have oil lines, and oil return lines, and indeed turbojet engines have governors; many have multiple governors to include speed governors CSD governing functions, etc. Even multiple oil sources, pumps, systems, etc...and yes, turbojet engines do have oil leaks and run out of oil. Earlier this year I lost seven gallons of oil on one leg.
Your assertion that one should reject a turbopropeller out of hand because you claim to have had an oil problem as a passenger at one time is ridiculous. Particularly in this case as we're talking about the piaggio avanti...and you're posting regarding an airplane, in a thread about the airplane, with which you have zero experience. None.
Your claim that a turbojet engine isn't susceptible to icing indicates that you have zero experience with turbojet engines, and apparently have never experienced ice, or the need for anti-ice, in a turbojet engine. The fact is that given the same conditions, a PT6A installation is often superior, and far less susceptible to damage from ice ingestion...given that it acts as a natural inertial separator and PT6A installations also use inertial separation equipment in the form of ice vanes and exit doors. Ice is a much bigger threat to turbojet engines.
You might be unfamiliar with what happens when a turbojet engine sheds a blade...but it does happen, and surprise surprise...most turbojet engines have more of them to lose. Turbojet engines also have RPM limits...just like turboprop powerplants.
As for the Piaggio...it outperforms some turbojets, goes just as high, faster, and with much better fuel efficiency and a bigger cabin...and it's quiet inside. Furthermore, it's a popular choice where image to stockholders or investors is important; with the performance of a turbojet and the appearance of a more frugal turboprop, and the lower turboprop operating economy, it fits the bill.
Perhaps you'll get an add-on for your microsoft flight simulator...and you can try an Avanti out...and add it to the list of other aircraft you've "flown."
I've served as a mechanic and director of maintenance for turbojet and turboprop operations, and really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about with respect to systems or experience. Your previous postings under other names have done nothing to contribute to the various forums in which you impose, and your obvious lack of experience here, particularly with the Avanti, means that your input here does little more than dumb down the thread.
Most certainly turbojet engines have oil lines, and oil return lines, and indeed turbojet engines have governors; many have multiple governors to include speed governors CSD governing functions, etc. Even multiple oil sources, pumps, systems, etc...and yes, turbojet engines do have oil leaks and run out of oil. Earlier this year I lost seven gallons of oil on one leg.
Your assertion that one should reject a turbopropeller out of hand because you claim to have had an oil problem as a passenger at one time is ridiculous. Particularly in this case as we're talking about the piaggio avanti...and you're posting regarding an airplane, in a thread about the airplane, with which you have zero experience. None.
Your claim that a turbojet engine isn't susceptible to icing indicates that you have zero experience with turbojet engines, and apparently have never experienced ice, or the need for anti-ice, in a turbojet engine. The fact is that given the same conditions, a PT6A installation is often superior, and far less susceptible to damage from ice ingestion...given that it acts as a natural inertial separator and PT6A installations also use inertial separation equipment in the form of ice vanes and exit doors. Ice is a much bigger threat to turbojet engines.
You might be unfamiliar with what happens when a turbojet engine sheds a blade...but it does happen, and surprise surprise...most turbojet engines have more of them to lose. Turbojet engines also have RPM limits...just like turboprop powerplants.
As for the Piaggio...it outperforms some turbojets, goes just as high, faster, and with much better fuel efficiency and a bigger cabin...and it's quiet inside. Furthermore, it's a popular choice where image to stockholders or investors is important; with the performance of a turbojet and the appearance of a more frugal turboprop, and the lower turboprop operating economy, it fits the bill.
Perhaps you'll get an add-on for your microsoft flight simulator...and you can try an Avanti out...and add it to the list of other aircraft you've "flown."
I've served as a mechanic and director of maintenance for turbojet and turboprop operations, and really don't think you have a clue what you're talking about with respect to systems or experience. Your previous postings under other names have done nothing to contribute to the various forums in which you impose, and your obvious lack of experience here, particularly with the Avanti, means that your input here does little more than dumb down the thread.
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Guys, we all know the differences between TPs and Jets, thanks.
We had a JT15D-4 putting ALL its oil on the ramp cause of a faulty valve during startup.
I had Oil chips in a HTF7000 after 17 hrs.
I had a cracked bleed valve in a PT6A-42.
So what?
If a propellor is a drawback, then only because of single engine / performance issues, not because of oil lines or simply because its fitted.
The topic is:
I havenīt flown one, but we looked them up for a potential buy and I talked a lot to real operators.
My best guess is that the airplane has its drawbacks in following fields:
Runway required
Range
Baggage space and how you get the stuff in (if that is relavant)
Behaviour on the ground (taxi and crosswinds - but that is just hearsay and certainly managable - but apperantly a bit of experience is big plus then)
Pistol refueling.
FAR 23 - if you are interested in FAR 25 T/O performance.
Positive side:
Cabin - huge and quiet
Interior quality
Cockpit layout
fuelburn
Speed
Depending on if you want to charter it out, we often heared the term: "but its not a jet" (we showed pictures to clients who were used to KingAirs and CJ2s) [maybe a to futuristic design to appeal to the average client we had]
We did not buy it, but it is certainly not a bad airplane.
The mx shop we had our KingAir in, had the first german Piggy as well. Spare availability and some procedures where a nightmare, from what I hear this issue has been closed. (was related to cash crisis after crisis at the works I was told)
We had a JT15D-4 putting ALL its oil on the ramp cause of a faulty valve during startup.
I had Oil chips in a HTF7000 after 17 hrs.
I had a cracked bleed valve in a PT6A-42.
So what?
If a propellor is a drawback, then only because of single engine / performance issues, not because of oil lines or simply because its fitted.
The topic is:
Positive and negative points on this aircraft?
My best guess is that the airplane has its drawbacks in following fields:
Runway required
Range
Baggage space and how you get the stuff in (if that is relavant)
Behaviour on the ground (taxi and crosswinds - but that is just hearsay and certainly managable - but apperantly a bit of experience is big plus then)
Pistol refueling.
FAR 23 - if you are interested in FAR 25 T/O performance.
Positive side:
Cabin - huge and quiet
Interior quality
Cockpit layout
fuelburn
Speed
Depending on if you want to charter it out, we often heared the term: "but its not a jet" (we showed pictures to clients who were used to KingAirs and CJ2s) [maybe a to futuristic design to appeal to the average client we had]
We did not buy it, but it is certainly not a bad airplane.
The mx shop we had our KingAir in, had the first german Piggy as well. Spare availability and some procedures where a nightmare, from what I hear this issue has been closed. (was related to cash crisis after crisis at the works I was told)
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A friend of mine flying a King Air 350, who's Citation deal fell through, used to tell me his King Air was just as nice as a Citation SII. That the extra 20 minutes from Las Vegas to Oregon, wasn't a big deal. Truth be told, that 20 minutes was more like and hour, he was sitting down in the 20s, I was at Fl31. He got pounded downstairs for 3 hours, I got smooth air for two. He sat in a 10,000 ft cabin, needing to go pee, drinking a ton of water, listening to the props go 'wir, wir, wir', vibration, noise...I had a 5000 ft cabin, I was could take off my headsets. He always had crap to fix, I didn't. His insurance was about the same, given his high hull value, he actualy had to use his boots, he was always dodging the weather...and he usualy had to sit down in it...I could always get above it. No you guys are right...there isn't any dif between turboprops and jets...and using that logic...the next time your sleeping with a 400lb girl, try to pretend she's Cindy Crawford as well.
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The Piaggio will often be found cruising above the citation in a bigger cabin that's quieter on less fuel with no loss in time enroute. The cabin is low, and unlike many turbojets, won't bump or depressurize when the power is pulled back for a descent...and it can be pulled to idle all the way down without losing the cabin...something you can't always do on some turbojets. Ten thousand foot cabin? Hardly.
Quiet...pilots in the Avanti are cautioned to be careful what they say...because the passengers can easily hear them.
Worrying about the boots? Electric forward wing, and bleed for the main wing. The only boots are on the nacelle inlets, which unlike a turbojet engine, are self-separating and don't have nearly the concerns with ice ingestion that most turbojets face.
Furthermore, the Avanti rides turbulence much better with a higher wing loading. Often when other pilots are reporting moderate turbulence, it's barely noticable in the Piaggio.
Let's see...quieter, roomier, less expensive to operate, more comfortable, flies as high and often higher, often faster (but then, what's not faster than a slotation?)...So much for your point of view.
Runway required...it's got turbojet performance; plan on the same runway values that will accomodate a turbojet. It will do less, but given acceptable accelerate stop and go distances, or balance your field, and you'll plan as though it were a jet. Runway distance isn't a problem.
Range...plan on four hours, with a still-air generic TAS of 370+. In the US, eastbound, I've easily done coast to coast non-stop. You won't get that out of a King Air.
External baggage, and it holds more than you might think. I've hauled skiers into Aspen and Telluride on many occasions in the Avanti, with an airplane full of people, bags, and their skis. Not a problem.
I don't know what behavior on the ground others might consider to be a problem, but I've taken off and landed in very stiff crosswinds without difficulty. I've operated it from iced-over runways, from snow, from water covered runways...just not a problem. I've landed at high elevations and low, in gusty conditions and calm...it handles very well.
I have no idea what "pistol refueling" means, but if you are referring to hand fueling via the upper tank refill...it's not necessary. The airplane comes with single point refueling capability and automatic shutoff, and it works very well. Sounds like you were misinformed.
Yes, it's a Part 23 airplane. However, particularly in comparison to other turboprops, it performs very well, and I always planned my flights with full accelerate-stop and go protection, and the ability to meet the climb gradients applicable to the location and procedure in use...with an engine out. Single engine performance doesn't decrease significantly as density altitude increases; it still performs about the same. Unlike some turboprops, the airplane can and will fly a single engine missed approach.
It's flight characteristics are very user friendly, as are it's systems. Stall behavior is very benign, it handles well throughout it's operating range.
Rather than going with heresay, perhaps you should have taken a demo flight and seen for yourself.
I did a lot of demo flights for prospective buyers or investors, and flew pilots and non-pilots alike. I always printed all my TOLD performance data on the weight and balance form so the passengers could see for themselves if they so desired; nothing hidden, no chances taken, everything done safely...and the numbers always worked.
Certainly the Piaggio does have it's disadvantages, but most of those which have been named just aren't the case, or are mis-stated.
Quiet...pilots in the Avanti are cautioned to be careful what they say...because the passengers can easily hear them.
Worrying about the boots? Electric forward wing, and bleed for the main wing. The only boots are on the nacelle inlets, which unlike a turbojet engine, are self-separating and don't have nearly the concerns with ice ingestion that most turbojets face.
Furthermore, the Avanti rides turbulence much better with a higher wing loading. Often when other pilots are reporting moderate turbulence, it's barely noticable in the Piaggio.
Let's see...quieter, roomier, less expensive to operate, more comfortable, flies as high and often higher, often faster (but then, what's not faster than a slotation?)...So much for your point of view.
My best guess is that the airplane has its drawbacks in following fields:
Runway required
Range
Baggage space and how you get the stuff in (if that is relavant)
Behaviour on the ground (taxi and crosswinds - but that is just hearsay and certainly managable - but apperantly a bit of experience is big plus then)
Pistol refueling.
FAR 23 - if you are interested in FAR 25 T/O performance.
Runway required
Range
Baggage space and how you get the stuff in (if that is relavant)
Behaviour on the ground (taxi and crosswinds - but that is just hearsay and certainly managable - but apperantly a bit of experience is big plus then)
Pistol refueling.
FAR 23 - if you are interested in FAR 25 T/O performance.
Range...plan on four hours, with a still-air generic TAS of 370+. In the US, eastbound, I've easily done coast to coast non-stop. You won't get that out of a King Air.
External baggage, and it holds more than you might think. I've hauled skiers into Aspen and Telluride on many occasions in the Avanti, with an airplane full of people, bags, and their skis. Not a problem.
I don't know what behavior on the ground others might consider to be a problem, but I've taken off and landed in very stiff crosswinds without difficulty. I've operated it from iced-over runways, from snow, from water covered runways...just not a problem. I've landed at high elevations and low, in gusty conditions and calm...it handles very well.
I have no idea what "pistol refueling" means, but if you are referring to hand fueling via the upper tank refill...it's not necessary. The airplane comes with single point refueling capability and automatic shutoff, and it works very well. Sounds like you were misinformed.
Yes, it's a Part 23 airplane. However, particularly in comparison to other turboprops, it performs very well, and I always planned my flights with full accelerate-stop and go protection, and the ability to meet the climb gradients applicable to the location and procedure in use...with an engine out. Single engine performance doesn't decrease significantly as density altitude increases; it still performs about the same. Unlike some turboprops, the airplane can and will fly a single engine missed approach.
It's flight characteristics are very user friendly, as are it's systems. Stall behavior is very benign, it handles well throughout it's operating range.
Rather than going with heresay, perhaps you should have taken a demo flight and seen for yourself.
I did a lot of demo flights for prospective buyers or investors, and flew pilots and non-pilots alike. I always printed all my TOLD performance data on the weight and balance form so the passengers could see for themselves if they so desired; nothing hidden, no chances taken, everything done safely...and the numbers always worked.
Certainly the Piaggio does have it's disadvantages, but most of those which have been named just aren't the case, or are mis-stated.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 8th Oct 2008 at 17:05.
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Perfect Guppy...you go fly the turboprops...if you want to hang up there at FL380, pretending your a jet...good for you. Personaly I will fly whatever the boss want's me to fly, even if it doesn't make sense. That said, I would take a ragged out Citation ISP at 29000ft from SEA to MIA for an even million, before I would drop 5 mil on a Piaggio. At 355 kts it might be a horse race to Florida, but I keep 4 mil in my pocket...which would buy...a helicopter, a place in Hawaii, a place in Florida, some ski boats, alot of jet fuel(with the interest on 4 mil alone), and a playboy playmate to keep me company on those long lonely 6 hour trips....we haven't even talked about buying a used Premier I, or a nice Citation SII, or straight V, still pocketing some cash...