Not interested in Jet republic?
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WeTakeRisks quite a lot of gloaters now here. this for you:
people took risks and then they failed. that is life. this is the real world. this is what economies are based on - taking risk, creating jobs.
other people just sit and waste Berkshire's cash to the tune of $250 million per quarter, and admire how great and smart they are...that's easy.
people took risks and then they failed. that is life. this is the real world. this is what economies are based on - taking risk, creating jobs.
other people just sit and waste Berkshire's cash to the tune of $250 million per quarter, and admire how great and smart they are...that's easy.
JR created jobs and then lost them. They failed. While we may be sympathetic to the victims of failure, we are not sympathetic to failure itself. On this front, the management must take the responsibility. However, in the past, many failed managers have just run off to an equally disasterous business venture somewhere else, causing more pain and hurt. So, let us learn the lessons and remember the manager's history when trusting them with our future.
Good luck to all the new job hunters out there.
Last edited by Chippie Chappie; 21st Aug 2009 at 17:15.
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Re-read my post. You still see (unmoderated) posts here criticising the company and its plans. If you think calling people names, lambasting their attire 
and revelling in others unemployment is the stuff of a bizjet forum then feel free to go and start one where all that is acceptable. This is a professional forum, not 'Hello' magazine.
Play the ball, not the man, and we'll have no problems. Maintain the personal attacks and irrelevant posts will continue to disappear.
Interestingly enough none of the members who had their posts deleted are complaining. If your posts are still here, what's the problem?
Duck
and revelling in others unemployment is the stuff of a bizjet forum then feel free to go and start one where all that is acceptable. This is a professional forum, not 'Hello' magazine.Play the ball, not the man, and we'll have no problems. Maintain the personal attacks and irrelevant posts will continue to disappear.
Interestingly enough none of the members who had their posts deleted are complaining. If your posts are still here, what's the problem?
Duck
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The Book Of Duck says nowt other than discuss the whole thing to your hearts content. It's obviously of interest to us all on a professional level, let's keep it there.
Before anyone asks me how this differs from, say, Paul Crowther and one or two other operators the difference is obvious. The latter have a proven and documented history of going bust leaving employees and creditors hanging in the breeze (pun intended) whereas the worst you can accuse JR of so far is bad timing and poor judgement. Whether or not some of us fell out with the main players isn't really pertinent. We don't know what the deal is between them and any financiers or suppliers, we don't know who lost any money, we really don't know much at all.
You have the floor. It's Friday evening and I have a corkscrew
Duck
Before anyone asks me how this differs from, say, Paul Crowther and one or two other operators the difference is obvious. The latter have a proven and documented history of going bust leaving employees and creditors hanging in the breeze (pun intended) whereas the worst you can accuse JR of so far is bad timing and poor judgement. Whether or not some of us fell out with the main players isn't really pertinent. We don't know what the deal is between them and any financiers or suppliers, we don't know who lost any money, we really don't know much at all.
You have the floor. It's Friday evening and I have a corkscrew
Duck
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Chris,
First of all compliments that you have the balls to come on the site using your name. (assuming it is you, but reading your response it could be you)
I have been highly critical of JR for a number of reasons but not for one: the intention to invest in aircraft, infrastructure and people. The problem was that they were a broker doing the same thing as any other broker so far only outspending most brokers big time on marketing.
The only thing any broker brings to our industry is the desire for us to lower our prices by being price led instead of quality led and as a consequence the quality and margins in the industry have been going down for years... So I fully agree on your statement about brokers like JR leaving the market:
First of all compliments that you have the balls to come on the site using your name. (assuming it is you, but reading your response it could be you)
I have been highly critical of JR for a number of reasons but not for one: the intention to invest in aircraft, infrastructure and people. The problem was that they were a broker doing the same thing as any other broker so far only outspending most brokers big time on marketing.
The only thing any broker brings to our industry is the desire for us to lower our prices by being price led instead of quality led and as a consequence the quality and margins in the industry have been going down for years... So I fully agree on your statement about brokers like JR leaving the market:
We genuinely think its right, proper and good news for the industry in the long run.
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I absolutely agree with your RYR not for me ! The broker will drive the cost base down too far to the point that the product is destroyed and ultimately in turn destroys the company,there's a lot to be said for small and compact high prestigious service in GA still if you have the vision to keep yourself removed from the hot air that comes from ill informed sellers !
Modesty and Honesty should prevail !!
JR where riding on hot air that was always going to blow cold in this climate,the client base was also never going to be there.
Modesty and Honesty should prevail !!
JR where riding on hot air that was always going to blow cold in this climate,the client base was also never going to be there.
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Cris
I know you are in the brooker business so obviously the fractionnals and their cards as a direct competition to your business.
I desagree with you about the Frax I think its gone get out stronger from that crisis, the charter market mainly exist based on owners of aircraft allowing their jet to be chartered a couple hundred hours a year to paid for the maintenance for example, meaning that the charter market exist because the capital invested in the jet in not taken into the pricing otherwise the hourly price will skyrocket up. It also mean those owners agree to have their aircraft flown with chartered customers on board...so they already accept the principal of the Frax ! i also met lots of owners around tied with their jet for sale now in this flat market who told me waiting for the plane to be sold then go to netjets !
I think the charter will be still there as well as the Frax , because its attractive financially so no surprise that Netjets is owned by a finance company, Buffet dislikes airlines but bought Netjets, because they make money by selling and financing airplane, not by flying them. surprisingly they communicate only on the operation (359m usd lost first semestre against 259 m gained last year same time ) there are very secretive about how much money they make selling and refinancing 1 airplane to maybe 30 or 40 customers in the life time of that airplane before they sell it defenitly out of the program..thats were Buffet sees the money !
the frax in europe will i believe remains a strong player because it introduced (sorry to say) lots of professionnalism in the GA market. i have been in this industry around 20 years now and i have seen, (coming and comparing standard from the airline) lots of cowboys companies all around, but also lots of crews ready to fly in very poor safety culture and training environment...dont quote me wrong, not all companies !
I know you are in the brooker business so obviously the fractionnals and their cards as a direct competition to your business.
I desagree with you about the Frax I think its gone get out stronger from that crisis, the charter market mainly exist based on owners of aircraft allowing their jet to be chartered a couple hundred hours a year to paid for the maintenance for example, meaning that the charter market exist because the capital invested in the jet in not taken into the pricing otherwise the hourly price will skyrocket up. It also mean those owners agree to have their aircraft flown with chartered customers on board...so they already accept the principal of the Frax ! i also met lots of owners around tied with their jet for sale now in this flat market who told me waiting for the plane to be sold then go to netjets !
I think the charter will be still there as well as the Frax , because its attractive financially so no surprise that Netjets is owned by a finance company, Buffet dislikes airlines but bought Netjets, because they make money by selling and financing airplane, not by flying them. surprisingly they communicate only on the operation (359m usd lost first semestre against 259 m gained last year same time ) there are very secretive about how much money they make selling and refinancing 1 airplane to maybe 30 or 40 customers in the life time of that airplane before they sell it defenitly out of the program..thats were Buffet sees the money !
the frax in europe will i believe remains a strong player because it introduced (sorry to say) lots of professionnalism in the GA market. i have been in this industry around 20 years now and i have seen, (coming and comparing standard from the airline) lots of cowboys companies all around, but also lots of crews ready to fly in very poor safety culture and training environment...dont quote me wrong, not all companies !
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We've all known the importance of reselling the aircraft to the NetJets business model for sometime (and to all fractional operations).
It's interesting that less than 12 months in to the massive fall in prices that NetJets have seen fit to rid themselves of Richard Santulli, the "Godfather" of fractional, who originally came up with and over time refined the business model. If he, and Buffett, can't refine it to the market and make it work, then nobody else has a hope either.
I note falcbis's comments about fractional being the way forward, but would respectfully point out that NetJets have effectively been selling charter on their aircraft (jet cards of 10 hours being available this summer IIRC) for years which have helped top up their coffers; when that fell off, combined with the fall in aircraft values, that has led to the current mire they find themselves in. We all should remember that Berkshire Hathaway would have had yet another good year if they didn't have NetJets (or at least, that's what Buffett said).
It's interesting that less than 12 months in to the massive fall in prices that NetJets have seen fit to rid themselves of Richard Santulli, the "Godfather" of fractional, who originally came up with and over time refined the business model. If he, and Buffett, can't refine it to the market and make it work, then nobody else has a hope either.
I note falcbis's comments about fractional being the way forward, but would respectfully point out that NetJets have effectively been selling charter on their aircraft (jet cards of 10 hours being available this summer IIRC) for years which have helped top up their coffers; when that fell off, combined with the fall in aircraft values, that has led to the current mire they find themselves in. We all should remember that Berkshire Hathaway would have had yet another good year if they didn't have NetJets (or at least, that's what Buffett said).
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Jet Republic.
with the recent announcement, I would like to express that Jet Republic tried very hard and due to the current financial situation it was always going to difficult.
A lot of negative comments have been made towards individuals whom where all trying to make it succeed.
I think its hats off to all of them whom where trying to take on the major NJE.
I personally know several individuals and they worked very hard to make it work and the end result was Jobs for many.
I want to wish all of you at JR all the best in finding positions in a somewhat difficult market.
Regards
A lot of negative comments have been made towards individuals whom where all trying to make it succeed.
I think its hats off to all of them whom where trying to take on the major NJE.
I personally know several individuals and they worked very hard to make it work and the end result was Jobs for many.
I want to wish all of you at JR all the best in finding positions in a somewhat difficult market.
Regards
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If JR were truly trying to take on NJ, then why did they make the biggest fundamental error and only order 1 aircraft type....thats not an oversight, or something brought on by the credit crunch, it's simply a bad choice.
Brave, but fundamentally flawed, even before they spent a penny...
DJ
Brave, but fundamentally flawed, even before they spent a penny...
DJ
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Now, those are $$$$$ losses...
Chippiee Chappiee:
"NetJets produced pre-tax losses in 2009 of $253 million for the second quarter and $349 million for the first six months. The pre-tax losses included asset writedowns and other downsizing costs of $192 million for the second quarter and $255 million for the first six months."
Were you suggesting something re management destroying shareholder value? Maybe then start at the source...
"NetJets produced pre-tax losses in 2009 of $253 million for the second quarter and $349 million for the first six months. The pre-tax losses included asset writedowns and other downsizing costs of $192 million for the second quarter and $255 million for the first six months."
Were you suggesting something re management destroying shareholder value? Maybe then start at the source...
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However the " I have told you so " and " letīs trash JB " type of messages are nothing more than emotional masturbation of people who clashed with this guy in the past, and never got over it.
People revelling over job losses (however naive JR staff may have been to believe in this project in retrospect) is truly nothing more than purely offensive and bizarre, and indeed add nothing to a professional forum.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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I frankly fail to believe that their recruitment policy had anything to do with them burning through their initial investment too fast 
(apart from any slice that CTC might have taken, but they could have kept it in-house and still applied same criteria).
I fail to understand how selecting ex-airline/MIL crews could bring about the hasty demise of JR. Maybe if the setup had been running for some time and HR was unable to pick individuals from those backgrounds that would fit the operating parameters - but not before their first in-house op was flown. Their reasons for selecting people from a certain background could have been very valid and might have worked in their favour in the long run... but that wasn't to be. My condolances to all who got aboard before she went under
(apart from any slice that CTC might have taken, but they could have kept it in-house and still applied same criteria).I fail to understand how selecting ex-airline/MIL crews could bring about the hasty demise of JR. Maybe if the setup had been running for some time and HR was unable to pick individuals from those backgrounds that would fit the operating parameters - but not before their first in-house op was flown. Their reasons for selecting people from a certain background could have been very valid and might have worked in their favour in the long run... but that wasn't to be. My condolances to all who got aboard before she went under
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I frankly fail to believe that their recruitment policy had anything to do with them burning through their initial investment too fast
Netjets has very deep pockets, a well-tested management team, a diverse and very large fleet of aircraft, a well-established reputation, years to sort out their software and operations, and are losing money hand over fist. JR had none of the above advantages, was launching their operation just when the demand for private jet travel went into the crapper, and made a curious aircraft selection as well.
What was the "secret sauce" that would have allowed JR to succeed? What was unique about their business plan that would have significantly reduced their cost or increased their attraction to customers?
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Capt'n Touchy?
Pond-Life,
I never intended to pick your post apart or to appear smug / smart - there's nothing for anyone to feel smug about after JR went under...
I just wanted to observe that their recruitment policy cannot be termed "dumb" or "smart", since the boys and girls hired never got the chance to prove their worth in battle. I don't think the people affected need to hear others calling them "the wrong choice" for the mission on top of them loosing their jobs.
Who was hired had nothing to do with them going down - it ain't their fault! Management... now, that appears to be another story
I never intended to pick your post apart or to appear smug / smart - there's nothing for anyone to feel smug about after JR went under...
I just wanted to observe that their recruitment policy cannot be termed "dumb" or "smart", since the boys and girls hired never got the chance to prove their worth in battle. I don't think the people affected need to hear others calling them "the wrong choice" for the mission on top of them loosing their jobs.
Who was hired had nothing to do with them going down - it ain't their fault! Management... now, that appears to be another story
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We Take Risks:
No.
You've quoted someone other than me with no reference to who it is. You've tried to put words into my mouth. You've either completely misunderstood my post or are intentionally trying to distort the meaning behind it. And you've misspelt my name. That's zero out of four.
Fact: NJE are still alive and JR are not. Feel free to justify it how you see fit, but please don't try and twist my words to do so.
Chippiee Chappiee:
"NetJets produced pre-tax losses in 2009 of $253 million for the second quarter and $349 million for the first six months. The pre-tax losses included asset writedowns and other downsizing costs of $192 million for the second quarter and $255 million for the first six months."
Were you suggesting something re management destroying shareholder value? Maybe then start at the source...
"NetJets produced pre-tax losses in 2009 of $253 million for the second quarter and $349 million for the first six months. The pre-tax losses included asset writedowns and other downsizing costs of $192 million for the second quarter and $255 million for the first six months."
Were you suggesting something re management destroying shareholder value? Maybe then start at the source...
You've quoted someone other than me with no reference to who it is. You've tried to put words into my mouth. You've either completely misunderstood my post or are intentionally trying to distort the meaning behind it. And you've misspelt my name. That's zero out of four.
Fact: NJE are still alive and JR are not. Feel free to justify it how you see fit, but please don't try and twist my words to do so.
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'Dodo' business model with winglets and espresso
Bottom line here is, it was never going to happen....
It took NJE about ten years to make a profit (i think?) even though they had a monopoly, after they saw off the Flexjet Frax programme.
So how on EARTH could JR hope to survive head to head against Netjets, with their broader superior fleet? It was conceived, gestated and almost born a Dodo....
It was never going to work, all of us who have been around this industry in a commercial role for more than 5 years knew it...
Would the investors pour money in to it for ten years or more? Clearly they saw the light of day with aircraft about to arrive imminently and a virtually empty order book and did the right thing before incresing the risk for all employees and suppliers.
The amazing thing is, that in their heart of hearts, im sure the JR mangement knew it was a Dodo from day one.... (is that why David Marcos jumped ship early?) but they must have had fun with all that marketing start up cash while it lasted. Management salaries were no doubt commensurate with the role..........and im sure the expense accounts were well enjoyed by all.... cant see those guys in an Ibis hotel.....
back to reality now...... for our industry.....thank goodness
It took NJE about ten years to make a profit (i think?) even though they had a monopoly, after they saw off the Flexjet Frax programme.
So how on EARTH could JR hope to survive head to head against Netjets, with their broader superior fleet? It was conceived, gestated and almost born a Dodo....
It was never going to work, all of us who have been around this industry in a commercial role for more than 5 years knew it...
Would the investors pour money in to it for ten years or more? Clearly they saw the light of day with aircraft about to arrive imminently and a virtually empty order book and did the right thing before incresing the risk for all employees and suppliers.
The amazing thing is, that in their heart of hearts, im sure the JR mangement knew it was a Dodo from day one.... (is that why David Marcos jumped ship early?) but they must have had fun with all that marketing start up cash while it lasted. Management salaries were no doubt commensurate with the role..........and im sure the expense accounts were well enjoyed by all.... cant see those guys in an Ibis hotel.....
back to reality now...... for our industry.....thank goodness
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Right team, Right business idea, Right aircraft policy, Right customer service policy...................................Wrong economic climate.
Some times business plans are just victims of issues far from any ones control, having been involved in a company failure last year I feel for all those involved.
Some times business plans are just victims of issues far from any ones control, having been involved in a company failure last year I feel for all those involved.