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Netjets Europe Face Court Case Over Tax & Social Security

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Netjets Europe Face Court Case Over Tax & Social Security

Old 26th May 2008, 00:47
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Netjets Europe Face Court Case Over Tax & Social Security

Having a sundowner with an ex-collegue last night who told me that a French operator and union have invited NJE to court over their somewhat parsimonious tax and social contributions on behalf of crew based in France.

Seems this is part of an organised campaign to rein in those companies who seek to reduce/avoid their obligations, one or two airlines have already had to take avoiding action and change basings and contracts.

No doubt Lisbon will initially dismiss this in their usual manner but they may well be forced to deal with it whether they like it or not, but how? Well the company overcrewed last year in anticipation of a large number of resignations when they imposed new tax and SS arrangements. A somewhat cynical move some might think which backfired and left them with many more pilots than they need, many of whom are languishing on home standby these days. So why are they still recruiting? A cynical person might think this development might be leading up to something.
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Old 26th May 2008, 07:07
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The operator is THS (Trans Helicopter Service). They operate Helicopters, King Airs, Falcon 100s and a Falcon 50.
They filed their lawsuit in March this year.

http://www.ths.fr/EN/index.html

I don't know about the french union involved. Never heard about it.
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Old 26th May 2008, 07:49
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Hi Smeagel,

We missed you dearly on the forum..... not... You should work in sales as you are very creative with the truth..

There has been an ongoing discussion with most tax authorities for the last two years to ensure that a NetJets pilot can live anywhere. This has been succesfull with most countries. The french have had problems with understanding that aviation is international and operators with an nAOC abroad like Easyjet, Ryanair, Cityjet (before the air france take over.. after that it went quiet.. ) and now NetJets. You tried to make this a topic a year or two ago and nothing happened..

Regarding overcrewing.. why are they still recruiting when you say they are overcrewed... must be a sinistire plan that only you are aware off..
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Old 26th May 2008, 11:55
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There has been an ongoing discussion with most tax authorities for the last two years to ensure that a NetJets pilot can live anywhere. This has been succesfull with most countries. The french have had problems.......
So it IS true? They are facing a Court case. Thanks for confirming that.



why are they still recruiting when you say they are overcrewed
Er, I think that was my question. Do keep up
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Old 26th May 2008, 12:21
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Ah, Smeagel - or is it his twin personality, namely Flintstone?

The court "case" - as I believe was reported on the NJE private forum (does Flinty still have access to that as joint owner?), if we are referring to the same circumstances, there is NO case at all. The French magazine that published the original article had to print a correction - & as for THS, as the company (allegedly) lost at least one customer to NJE, perhaps there are grounds for sour grapes, n'est pas??
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Old 26th May 2008, 15:17
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You read what you want, I did not confirm anything.

I do know that France is the most sorry state in Europe in understanding what European means in aviation.
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Old 26th May 2008, 16:39
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Me thinks that it is about time to get Netjets Transportes Aereos (who for some reason want to be called Netjets Europe) to a level playing field with other corporate operators, who have to obey tax and social security laws in their own countries.
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Old 26th May 2008, 17:46
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H.Finn,

I pay the normal amounts of national insurance and tax. No breaks for me....
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Old 26th May 2008, 18:17
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So you should reddo. Everyone knows you're loaded anyway.

On a serious note what percentage of the crew are French these days? Used to be one third. Even if the company were able to pay reduced contributions for one year only that's a major saving toward bonuses at the top so it's worth their while resisting for as long as they can. Good for business.

Interesting suggestion as to what the continued recruitment bodes. Quite a few people have told me they're not flying much at all at the moment which is nice in the short term. Bit like the old days. Could well be the precursor to something else I suppose. Who knows? Above my pay scale, below my bovvered threshold.
 
Old 26th May 2008, 20:47
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I think it's the other way round, NetJets Europe like to be called NetJets Transportes Aéreos, SA. This is on account of the fact that's there name.


Sorry H Finn - bit confused where would you like NJTA to pay their taxes? NJTA's operate under a Portuguese AOC with the operational control in Lisbon. I'm sure NJTA pay lots of taxes to Portugal.


Perhaps it is the pilots who work for NetJets that you are talking about?
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Old 26th May 2008, 21:04
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Thread drift.

loaded
Yep, just finished a little snack of caviar, tapenade, worcester blue on cheese and crackers. Delish.
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Old 27th May 2008, 03:32
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If IBM sets up an office in Absurdistan, they go by the tax and social security laws of Absurdistan. Same should be true with NJTA (who rather would be known as NJE), if they have a gateway in the same A:stan. Should not be too difficult, just one more hurdle in the already complicated business of running the bizjet show.
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Old 27th May 2008, 06:41
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Ahh Reddo life as a DINKY.


Mr Finn


Agreed - if they had an office or a base in France.


This is the problem with the court case. NetJets has offices in London and Lisbon. They have no office in my country of residence, France - and why should they. They don't have a base here. Time people realised that airlines are not national 'entities'. All crews pay tax and social security in one of these countries. Why try and prosecute the company when it is operating iaw EU law. Within the EU you can live one place and gain an income somewhere else. However, you don't necessarily pay your taxes were you live, although you must pay taxes somewhere.


What I find amusing is the way that it's a French prosecution. Almost all the French Pilots we employ in NJTA could not find work in France without NetJets, AF having strangled every other decent operator here - I presume THS would like to see them out on the street.


While we are at it why not prosecute BA and Virgin. How many of their guys are living in France and meeting up with their aircraft some where else? Should they have French contracts? All that NJTA has done is allow crew to live where they want and then pays for them to fly to work - and incidently, unlike the commuters in other airlines, included this travel time in their daily duty and subsequent rest. Should we not be encouraging this sort of caring approach?


Anyway let me be the first one to announce the new gateway in .........Absurdistan

Last edited by Taxi2parking; 27th May 2008 at 14:25.
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Old 27th May 2008, 07:07
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Reddo and TX2, care to comment on crew levels and flight times?

iX
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Old 27th May 2008, 07:23
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Taxi2parking

"..and incidently, unlike the commuters in other airlines, included this travel time in their daily duty and subsequent rest. Should we not be encouraging this sort of caring approach?"

I am sure you will get some reaction from Smeagle with that one! Ha!
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Old 27th May 2008, 08:41
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My wife's attitude to NJ changed when she read that its owned by BH/the sage....

She has a point, biz aviation is littered with cowboys and muppets. Lisbon staff get slated here but no worse that the ops depts of the rest of the "Big Airlines" et al.

Yes BH look for profit form their investments and if playing the rules works great, at the same time though, they're not going to screw around either... the staff are the front line to the customer! without the customer (owner) there is no airline...

I doubt you'd see NJE sacking a capt for running out of duty time or running their operation from credit cards or rejecting expense claims and telling you to resubmit next month. (all egs of small biz operators from these forums recently).

iX
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Old 27th May 2008, 10:19
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by joehunt
I am sure you will get some reaction from Smeagle with that one!
Why? What a strange thing to write. That's exactly as it should be so why should I or anyone else be bothered about it?

Fact is that 'proper' bases wouldn't work for the companyanyway so you cannot compare their gateway system with BA/Virgin crew choosing to live elsewhere. NJE/NTAS would have to shell out for a ticket most of the time, doesn't bother them where it's from (within reason).

(It's funny how the pro-NJE/NTAS contributors react to anything I write. Can't help themselves. Mods!!! Can I change my username to 'Pavlov' please?)
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Old 27th May 2008, 11:19
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ix_touring,

Regarding your question.
The crew levels for the flights I did was 2. The flight time varied depending on the length of trip.

I doubt this answers your intended question but perhaps you could rephrase it? I dare say it's been answered in the great "all you needed to know" thread.
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Old 27th May 2008, 14:53
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Its about time, that this issue gets settled in court, so why not now? There could be tons of posts about the tax issue, everybody with an own opinion or two but nobody really knows what the truth is. Legal or not who knows. But how good would a verdict from a french court be accepted in portugal or the czeck republic? So I guess at the end it must be a EU court decision serving as a raw model for other EU companies with a similar construct.

There is no way around it, however, one thousand or more tax declaration should have been filed allready with the national authorities responding to it. So whats your experience with it?

Any trouble with the construct so far?

Lets quote Smeagel: "Discuss" . . .

. . . although I doubt it will happen, since most of the NTA people seem to be fat dumb and happy enjoying a chilled life right now.
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Old 27th May 2008, 15:18
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ooooiiiii - I resent the 'fat' bit
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