Netjets seniority list
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Peoplpe ae concerned about the future of NTA, but they do not blink an eye on whatever smaller outfit with a couple of airplanes; owner flown and maintained.
Aviation got cycles, may be one day NTA will collapse, may be Air France would go down, like Sabena or Swiss..Or may be BA would go down after looking how to downgrade crew benefits etc. These are all maybe's or If's
For the time being, the leverage that Netjets got is to tamper aircrafts deliveries towards sales, if the number of sold hours does not fit the actual scheme, I'm quite sure , since management is not philantropist in nature, they are going to find a solution, or new markets..
Let pilots piloting , and managers managing, let policies to set in place, voice the concerns, write crew reports if not happy and enjoy the life.
What would be pprune without sterile chats ?
Aviation got cycles, may be one day NTA will collapse, may be Air France would go down, like Sabena or Swiss..Or may be BA would go down after looking how to downgrade crew benefits etc. These are all maybe's or If's
For the time being, the leverage that Netjets got is to tamper aircrafts deliveries towards sales, if the number of sold hours does not fit the actual scheme, I'm quite sure , since management is not philantropist in nature, they are going to find a solution, or new markets..
Let pilots piloting , and managers managing, let policies to set in place, voice the concerns, write crew reports if not happy and enjoy the life.
What would be pprune without sterile chats ?
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NetJets growing pains
@ Atlantique
Take a look :
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...tm?chan=search
This thread is becoming interesting for people. Good discussion about progression and seniority and maybe some good stuuf about the businessmodel of netjets.
Ciao
Take a look :
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...tm?chan=search
This thread is becoming interesting for people. Good discussion about progression and seniority and maybe some good stuuf about the businessmodel of netjets.
Ciao
Thread Starter
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Nice article indeed.
But it is still talking about growing pains experienced by the industry in the period 2002-2005. The whole fractional ownership business model is all in all fairly new, so couldn’t growing pains be expected?
From what I know for example about the whole business model, is that the whole thing starts getting profitable the more you reduce the number of ferry flight hours. This off course can only be done once you start having a fairly big fleet size so you can cover a denser airplane coverage of your geographical area of operation.
From what I hear of NJE, this has only started to happen this year and this can be seen in a rather big decrease of ferry flight hours.
Another thing is watching fuel burn on these ferry flights. While before pilots could fly anyway they wanted on these sectors, now they are being encouraged to fly econ cruise speeds . ( correct me if wrong)
Many more things like this could be done in the future, and I am sure lots of them are being looked in to by the powers to be.
So it is my opinion that these business models will start showing their full potential in the nearby future.
Especially when looking at the rising fuel costs, which will affect big jets more when flying below optimal payloads.
Airport saturation is another fact, only playing in favour of fractional ownerships.
Many of these things could be brought up in favor of the Netjets Niche market.
Open for discussion, as always.
But it is still talking about growing pains experienced by the industry in the period 2002-2005. The whole fractional ownership business model is all in all fairly new, so couldn’t growing pains be expected?
From what I know for example about the whole business model, is that the whole thing starts getting profitable the more you reduce the number of ferry flight hours. This off course can only be done once you start having a fairly big fleet size so you can cover a denser airplane coverage of your geographical area of operation.
From what I hear of NJE, this has only started to happen this year and this can be seen in a rather big decrease of ferry flight hours.
Another thing is watching fuel burn on these ferry flights. While before pilots could fly anyway they wanted on these sectors, now they are being encouraged to fly econ cruise speeds . ( correct me if wrong)
Many more things like this could be done in the future, and I am sure lots of them are being looked in to by the powers to be.
So it is my opinion that these business models will start showing their full potential in the nearby future.
Especially when looking at the rising fuel costs, which will affect big jets more when flying below optimal payloads.
Airport saturation is another fact, only playing in favour of fractional ownerships.
Many of these things could be brought up in favor of the Netjets Niche market.
Open for discussion, as always.
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Just had my indoc some months ago and one of the managment guys held an presentation and he was there saying that with the size the company has now reached, it is proven that they will definitely earn money.
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In 2003 the story was....we need a considerable size of our fleet before making money....2004 the same, 2005, 2006 small profit, 2007 bigger profit.
I try to explain where it goes wrong. Not too much, they do not pay me near enough to get this for free....
Where shall I start:
1. First off all the different types we fly, way too much and a nightmare to get the right type to the rightfull customer. Upgrades and long ferries happen a lot. Both costing money.
2. With the right size of the fleet the ferry amount should go down. Nope doesn't happen for the last 5 years, still around 35% to 40% empty sectors. Cost a lot of money.
3. The peak capacity, why would you as customer spent a ****load of money to hear in busy periods that your plane is not available. so nj is hiring other jets from other operators, they need 2% capacity from the outside. This capacity is difficult to get cheaply. Maybe the first year, but the next that operator realizes he/she can make a lot more money than selling his capacity to netjets, cause nj is only needing them in peak hours when EVERYBODY can make money. So sell off are expensive, and driving the selloff number down is near inpossible (i have some ideas, but as said not paid near enough ;-)
4. Oilprices go up ($100,- now and 130 at the end of the year), and competition gets cheaper (air taxis and vlj's), so margin goes down.
5. The selling of the shares (16) per aircraft is the big moneymaker, nj buys 50 aircraft at once and gets aprox 25% discount. But the owners pay the full monty, and this process is continued every 5 years. Now since 2002 we had an explosion off cheaper clients who bought block hour (25 or 50 hr) cards. They had to do this because sales was slowing. Now the proportion of real owners and cardholders is not normal anymore. And this disposition gets worse as sales are slowing again!
The solutions, some are very simple but Santulli and his arrogance do not see them. (btw his brother is involved in buying the aircraft, look it up, then you understand some deals for aircraft which shouldn't belong to the best of the best fleet.....)
Anyway, 2006 and 2007, many airlines made a lot of money. 2008 and 09 will be different. Some will not survive (the legacy carriers will however, and af is now hiring experienced 320 people, see last flight international) but netjets europe will have 2 difficult years.
Hope this helps, still do not forget the pension, the sickness policy, the way they treat management, the 7 to 10 years before you touch a nice aircraft, the savings on hotels/travel, and the fact that 80% of the pilots serve on small or midsize fleets....
I try to explain where it goes wrong. Not too much, they do not pay me near enough to get this for free....
Where shall I start:
1. First off all the different types we fly, way too much and a nightmare to get the right type to the rightfull customer. Upgrades and long ferries happen a lot. Both costing money.
2. With the right size of the fleet the ferry amount should go down. Nope doesn't happen for the last 5 years, still around 35% to 40% empty sectors. Cost a lot of money.
3. The peak capacity, why would you as customer spent a ****load of money to hear in busy periods that your plane is not available. so nj is hiring other jets from other operators, they need 2% capacity from the outside. This capacity is difficult to get cheaply. Maybe the first year, but the next that operator realizes he/she can make a lot more money than selling his capacity to netjets, cause nj is only needing them in peak hours when EVERYBODY can make money. So sell off are expensive, and driving the selloff number down is near inpossible (i have some ideas, but as said not paid near enough ;-)
4. Oilprices go up ($100,- now and 130 at the end of the year), and competition gets cheaper (air taxis and vlj's), so margin goes down.
5. The selling of the shares (16) per aircraft is the big moneymaker, nj buys 50 aircraft at once and gets aprox 25% discount. But the owners pay the full monty, and this process is continued every 5 years. Now since 2002 we had an explosion off cheaper clients who bought block hour (25 or 50 hr) cards. They had to do this because sales was slowing. Now the proportion of real owners and cardholders is not normal anymore. And this disposition gets worse as sales are slowing again!
The solutions, some are very simple but Santulli and his arrogance do not see them. (btw his brother is involved in buying the aircraft, look it up, then you understand some deals for aircraft which shouldn't belong to the best of the best fleet.....)
Anyway, 2006 and 2007, many airlines made a lot of money. 2008 and 09 will be different. Some will not survive (the legacy carriers will however, and af is now hiring experienced 320 people, see last flight international) but netjets europe will have 2 difficult years.
Hope this helps, still do not forget the pension, the sickness policy, the way they treat management, the 7 to 10 years before you touch a nice aircraft, the savings on hotels/travel, and the fact that 80% of the pilots serve on small or midsize fleets....
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Got to say Holyman that’s quite an attitude you've got there fella. Someone doesn't agree with you, questions your numbers and you respond by being rude.
“You dissapoint me, you ask a question I give you my best shot. And then you have better information? Do NOT ask the question then !!”
Does this mean Holyman that YOU are the one? The one single person on the planet who is correct 100% of the time, to who i need to direct all future questions on topics various?
You then proceed to post an old link to Fractionair, which exposes your exceedingly shallow logic. How on earth can you draw comparisons between the financial problems Fractionair had two years ago, and Netjets, whose owners Barkshire Hathaway have $46 BILLION CASH RESERVES you plank. There is NOTHING in that article that wasn't talked about years ago in Netjets, positioning costs, maintenance blah blah blah. It's not in the slightest bit interesting or relevant to netjets current issues.
I am not saying that Netjets is the dogs dangly bit's, however it's alot better than it was 5 years ago. However Holyman, back to the point of the thread and that is the NETJETS SENIORITY LIST. Why do you have a particular problem with a date of join system which is apparent in your original post?
"So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !"
That’s probably you bitching around Holyman, and it's that bitching around that is frankly testing the patience me and a good number of others! Your post's have so many holes in them i don't really know where to start. Just one final point however, those 80% of pilots who serve on small/mid cabin aircraft did have a choice in the interview. When asked "Do you mind flying a small cabin aircraft?" they should have jolly well answered "YES"
“You dissapoint me, you ask a question I give you my best shot. And then you have better information? Do NOT ask the question then !!”
Does this mean Holyman that YOU are the one? The one single person on the planet who is correct 100% of the time, to who i need to direct all future questions on topics various?
You then proceed to post an old link to Fractionair, which exposes your exceedingly shallow logic. How on earth can you draw comparisons between the financial problems Fractionair had two years ago, and Netjets, whose owners Barkshire Hathaway have $46 BILLION CASH RESERVES you plank. There is NOTHING in that article that wasn't talked about years ago in Netjets, positioning costs, maintenance blah blah blah. It's not in the slightest bit interesting or relevant to netjets current issues.
I am not saying that Netjets is the dogs dangly bit's, however it's alot better than it was 5 years ago. However Holyman, back to the point of the thread and that is the NETJETS SENIORITY LIST. Why do you have a particular problem with a date of join system which is apparent in your original post?
"So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !"
That’s probably you bitching around Holyman, and it's that bitching around that is frankly testing the patience me and a good number of others! Your post's have so many holes in them i don't really know where to start. Just one final point however, those 80% of pilots who serve on small/mid cabin aircraft did have a choice in the interview. When asked "Do you mind flying a small cabin aircraft?" they should have jolly well answered "YES"
Last edited by Impressive_Wingspan; 23rd Feb 2008 at 22:08.
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So....should I ( and many others) worry about joining or not?
Is it all over for new joiners?
Is 11 years on a small jet realistically, or was I closer with my 4-6 years prediction?
Is this senioritylist, and everything that goes with it, a good thing or a bad thing after all?
BTW size does not matter, but the lifestyle that comes with flying long haul does!
Is it all over for new joiners?
Is 11 years on a small jet realistically, or was I closer with my 4-6 years prediction?
Is this senioritylist, and everything that goes with it, a good thing or a bad thing after all?
BTW size does not matter, but the lifestyle that comes with flying long haul does!
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This is how net-jets Europe seniority goes;
1) ex RAF
2) Family of ex RAF
3) Friend of ex RAF
4) Friend of a friend who is ex RAF
5) Wanted to join RAF
6) Got poster of Harrier on bedroom wall
7) Everyone else
edit to add, a ex RAF fighter pilot friend was recently offered a position at Netjets. He didn't want to be an FO so he was TOLD by senior recruiters also ex RAF he would get a couple of months right seat and then a quiet move to left!!!
1) ex RAF
2) Family of ex RAF
3) Friend of ex RAF
4) Friend of a friend who is ex RAF
5) Wanted to join RAF
6) Got poster of Harrier on bedroom wall
7) Everyone else
edit to add, a ex RAF fighter pilot friend was recently offered a position at Netjets. He didn't want to be an FO so he was TOLD by senior recruiters also ex RAF he would get a couple of months right seat and then a quiet move to left!!!
Last edited by pilotbear; 18th Jun 2008 at 09:27.
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Awwww, c'mon. The new, nice guy DOE is ex-Luftwaffe so there's hope for others.
Actually, now you mention it the favourites in NJE do seem to come around in cycles. In the very early days it was the Lisbon Flying Club, if you were leaving the Portuguese air force you got a job. Anyone above the rank of Flt Lt became an instant captain.
Then it was Sabena. All the long range, training, upgrade jobs were theirs.
Now (apparently) it's the turn of the RAF.
Who's next?
Actually, now you mention it the favourites in NJE do seem to come around in cycles. In the very early days it was the Lisbon Flying Club, if you were leaving the Portuguese air force you got a job. Anyone above the rank of Flt Lt became an instant captain.
Then it was Sabena. All the long range, training, upgrade jobs were theirs.
Now (apparently) it's the turn of the RAF.
Who's next?
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No, i honestly don't think you should be worried about joining Netjets. Like i said big brother has an awful lot of cash down the back of the sofa and it is very difficult to see Berkshire Hathaway walking away. Even if Holyman thinks the number of positioning flights are not going down, everyone who has been to a recurrent over the last 6 months will confirm the trend has been downward as have the number of sell off's. That is based on the information we have been presented with. Suggesting that VLJ's will compete with Netjets is just nonsense and significantly underestimates Netjets owners. These are some of the richest people in Europe and the heads of large companies and they know their stuff, and that will include aircraft!
I joined four and a half years ago and it was very different then, and things have improved steadily, but it's a marathon not a sprint. I think BK is not only likeable but seems to have a very good grasp on reality and the fractional business. I'm not management and kiss no-ones ass, UK based mid size captain and quite happy with the lifestyle.
Aircraft wise, alot of experienced guys seem to be going to the Hawker fleet which is understandable given the number on order. Varied flying, APU, fleet manger and assistants are good lads. How long you would be there for, 11 years i very much doubt, 6-7 years would be more like it.
I joined four and a half years ago and it was very different then, and things have improved steadily, but it's a marathon not a sprint. I think BK is not only likeable but seems to have a very good grasp on reality and the fractional business. I'm not management and kiss no-ones ass, UK based mid size captain and quite happy with the lifestyle.
Aircraft wise, alot of experienced guys seem to be going to the Hawker fleet which is understandable given the number on order. Varied flying, APU, fleet manger and assistants are good lads. How long you would be there for, 11 years i very much doubt, 6-7 years would be more like it.
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The VLJ market is a niche in itself, when a customer will show up with a party of 3 instead of 2 with bags and will be denied boarding or enroute stop (if possible) we will see. The trend in our market is the bigger the better; people will try VLJ's get scared, get off the runway end a couple of times and it will be the end of it...
5 years ago operators were afraid of TBM and other Premier things... they found a niche but did not stumble the market. Dayjet in america is doable, in europe, we are a long shot away...
5 years ago operators were afraid of TBM and other Premier things... they found a niche but did not stumble the market. Dayjet in america is doable, in europe, we are a long shot away...
Last edited by CL300; 24th Feb 2008 at 08:48.
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Ferry v Revenue
When Holyman says that the percentge of Ferry sectors is not decreasing I guess he must be referring to the huge G4 fleet - seems like they keep ferrying to maintainance!
For the 'fleets' of aircraft thats well off the mark. A tour last month - 16 Sectors, 21 hours, 0.4 FERRY!!! LHR-LCY!! Admittedly thats more efficient than most, but nothing came close to that a few years back.
As for recession - everyone knows the Poor get poorer and the Rich (who, I think we fly!) get richer!
For the 'fleets' of aircraft thats well off the mark. A tour last month - 16 Sectors, 21 hours, 0.4 FERRY!!! LHR-LCY!! Admittedly thats more efficient than most, but nothing came close to that a few years back.
As for recession - everyone knows the Poor get poorer and the Rich (who, I think we fly!) get richer!
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You are def right flinters, VLJ's probably will take some business, especially the trips London-Paris, Geneva Zurich etc. These companies are going to have the same issues Netjets have been trying for years to solve, and although significantly cheaper to operate until they get a substantial client and aircraft base i would think they may be doing a fair bit of ferrying. They do look very small, saw one of them Eclipse things a few weeks ago, wouldn't mind a spin, them engines look tiny.
It is noticable the difference in number of ferry flights we are doing, not like the good old days of 2 revenues 2 ferries!
It is noticable the difference in number of ferry flights we are doing, not like the good old days of 2 revenues 2 ferries!
Last edited by Impressive_Wingspan; 24th Feb 2008 at 08:43.
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At least the discussion is going now.
So with how much did the ferry numbers drop.......we saw the same numbers but they did not impress me ?
The same for sell off's, remember that 2006 and 2007 where such good years you hd to be very stupid not to make money! Because everybody did make money!
Anyone care to ask for an update on recruiting? I did, they will be ready before the summer, after the summer only continueing to make a pool of good candidates for next year.
Anyone on the person who is long term sick and they want to fire him now?
So with how much did the ferry numbers drop.......we saw the same numbers but they did not impress me ?
The same for sell off's, remember that 2006 and 2007 where such good years you hd to be very stupid not to make money! Because everybody did make money!
Anyone care to ask for an update on recruiting? I did, they will be ready before the summer, after the summer only continueing to make a pool of good candidates for next year.
Anyone on the person who is long term sick and they want to fire him now?
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Holyman, you trying to usurp Smeagol or something? 
If you're asking about the pilot involved in the engine fumes gassing incident I'm told that his salary was cut last year but was then restored as the reduction was "an error". It seems that they now want to make the same "error", threats of reduced pay are again in the air at a time when he is very unwell.
If you're asking about the pilot involved in the engine fumes gassing incident I'm told that his salary was cut last year but was then restored as the reduction was "an error". It seems that they now want to make the same "error", threats of reduced pay are again in the air at a time when he is very unwell.
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Holyman, recruitment and how management handles any future problems we need not concern ourselves with. They may indeed have a problem getting suitably experienced pilots. This is usually followed by a change in either salary or benefits to attract the people they need.
When was your last recurrent? The information i had put on a very big screen infront of me showed the number of ferries going down. I cannot remember the exact numbers but do recall the conversation which lasted for 30 minutes afterwards. Everyone out and about has been talking exactly the same way for some time now, which makes me think you may not have been around that long?
Holyman, can you eloborate on the problems you see on the Date of Join system? On the old system of fleet changes MANY guys who i have flown with as JUNIOR co-pilots are now captains on large cabin aircraft. I havn't bitched and moaned about this, because to be honest i really don't care. So the fairest solution is to continue with the above mentioned system of management pulling fleet changes from a hat, NO NO NO NO NO.
Also i would be very interested to hear your view on VLJ's and why you think they are going to have such a big impact on the flying Netjets does?
When was your last recurrent? The information i had put on a very big screen infront of me showed the number of ferries going down. I cannot remember the exact numbers but do recall the conversation which lasted for 30 minutes afterwards. Everyone out and about has been talking exactly the same way for some time now, which makes me think you may not have been around that long?
Holyman, can you eloborate on the problems you see on the Date of Join system? On the old system of fleet changes MANY guys who i have flown with as JUNIOR co-pilots are now captains on large cabin aircraft. I havn't bitched and moaned about this, because to be honest i really don't care. So the fairest solution is to continue with the above mentioned system of management pulling fleet changes from a hat, NO NO NO NO NO.
Also i would be very interested to hear your view on VLJ's and why you think they are going to have such a big impact on the flying Netjets does?