Netjets seniority list
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Netjets seniority list
Does anyone here have any more ideas what the new seniority list proposal is going to look like?
Pure seniority list based on DOJ?
Seat locking?
Time before upgrades?
Fleet transfers?
A new memo was supposed to be released this week....nothing so far!
Pure seniority list based on DOJ?
Seat locking?
Time before upgrades?
Fleet transfers?
A new memo was supposed to be released this week....nothing so far!
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So for someone joining now, with 9000hrs heavy jet in his log book, and taking this new seniority system into account...
Lets assume he/she will be hired on the HS125
How long will it take for:
1) An upgrade
2) Fleet transfer to one of the bigger planes such as the 2000 for example.
Thanks for the info.
Lets assume he/she will be hired on the HS125
How long will it take for:
1) An upgrade
2) Fleet transfer to one of the bigger planes such as the 2000 for example.
Thanks for the info.
Last edited by Sgnr de L'Atlantique; 23rd Feb 2008 at 22:18.
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I think, but could be wrong.
That it would take him 6-12 months to upgrade to captain, no direct entry captains.
Then, he would be seat locked for 2 years as a captain, then he would be competing through the bidding system with everyone else.
So, it just depends on when he joins and what his number on the seniority list is relative to everyone else who will also be looking to get on to a large cabin plane.
Almost an impossible question, I think only the minimum of 3 years can be said to get to the point of being able to bid, then it is down to a large set of variables. ( seniority, types available at that time for bidding, how many people bid for that type, etc, etc)
That it would take him 6-12 months to upgrade to captain, no direct entry captains.
Then, he would be seat locked for 2 years as a captain, then he would be competing through the bidding system with everyone else.
So, it just depends on when he joins and what his number on the seniority list is relative to everyone else who will also be looking to get on to a large cabin plane.
Almost an impossible question, I think only the minimum of 3 years can be said to get to the point of being able to bid, then it is down to a large set of variables. ( seniority, types available at that time for bidding, how many people bid for that type, etc, etc)
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Be Carefull with NJ Seniority
@ Atlantique
The fleet is divided in small/medium jets and large cabin (Hawker 4000 and above), the ratio is 80-20.
NetJets crews 8 pilots per aircraft, at the moment around 1000 pilots and 150 aircraft.
So from the 1000 pilots some 200 are flying large cabin.
How long will it take?
Lets see:
NetJets growing 20% per year.
Average 70 pilots walk away (pension, sick, other job etc).
So if you join now you be around the nr 1000 position. Every year you are in the company the large fleet gets 20% bigger. At the moment they have 100 captains and 100 FO large fleet.
year 0 - most junior large fleet captain around seniority 100.
year 1 - 7 walk away (evenly spread throughout 1000 pilots) so we take 7% leavers, and fleet grows 20%, so most junior captain now around 127
Year 0 100
Year 1 128
Year 2 165
Year 3 212
Year 4 272
Year 5 349
Year 6 448
Year 7 575
Year 8 739
Year 9 949
Year 10 1218
So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !
The fleet is divided in small/medium jets and large cabin (Hawker 4000 and above), the ratio is 80-20.
NetJets crews 8 pilots per aircraft, at the moment around 1000 pilots and 150 aircraft.
So from the 1000 pilots some 200 are flying large cabin.
How long will it take?
Lets see:
NetJets growing 20% per year.
Average 70 pilots walk away (pension, sick, other job etc).
So if you join now you be around the nr 1000 position. Every year you are in the company the large fleet gets 20% bigger. At the moment they have 100 captains and 100 FO large fleet.
year 0 - most junior large fleet captain around seniority 100.
year 1 - 7 walk away (evenly spread throughout 1000 pilots) so we take 7% leavers, and fleet grows 20%, so most junior captain now around 127
Year 0 100
Year 1 128
Year 2 165
Year 3 212
Year 4 272
Year 5 349
Year 6 448
Year 7 575
Year 8 739
Year 9 949
Year 10 1218
So it will take 11 longs years of bitching around on the small/medium fleets. That means 2 to 4 legs a day, 33% of them have no apu (airco/heating) etc.......good luck !
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@ Holy man,
your theory is not totally correct I am afraid. You forgot to take into account the following:
1) 1000 pilots is more or less correct. 60% captain/40% FO
2) On the large cabin fleets the ratio is even higher, as they fly a lot with reinforced crews with 2 Capt and 1 FO
3) Of these 1000 pilots, a big number are young FOs, needing hours before becoming captain. Besides that there still is a 50% fail rate in the upgrades.
4) With the new seniority system, people will get seatlocked for longer. This could mean a faster tranfer to large cabin as well.
5) Not all pilots are interested in flying long haul.
6) In order to transfer to e.g. the 7X, long haul experience and other things will be taken into account as well.
7) Netjets crews at 6 pilots per aircraft. (bit higher on long haul)
So when you take all this into acount I think it might happen just a bit faster than your prediction.
People who started 1.5 years ago might expect a large cabin airplane within 3 years to come.
People starting now, could expect ( if experienced enough) a large cabin after 5 to 6 years.
( These figures come from an experienced netjets pilot, they are not mine...)
your theory is not totally correct I am afraid. You forgot to take into account the following:
1) 1000 pilots is more or less correct. 60% captain/40% FO
2) On the large cabin fleets the ratio is even higher, as they fly a lot with reinforced crews with 2 Capt and 1 FO
3) Of these 1000 pilots, a big number are young FOs, needing hours before becoming captain. Besides that there still is a 50% fail rate in the upgrades.
4) With the new seniority system, people will get seatlocked for longer. This could mean a faster tranfer to large cabin as well.
5) Not all pilots are interested in flying long haul.
6) In order to transfer to e.g. the 7X, long haul experience and other things will be taken into account as well.
7) Netjets crews at 6 pilots per aircraft. (bit higher on long haul)
So when you take all this into acount I think it might happen just a bit faster than your prediction.
People who started 1.5 years ago might expect a large cabin airplane within 3 years to come.
People starting now, could expect ( if experienced enough) a large cabin after 5 to 6 years.
( These figures come from an experienced netjets pilot, they are not mine...)
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Holyman,
Clever maths; but factualy incorrect.
At present there is about a 3-4 year wait from moving from a small/mid fleet to a long haul one.
Given the shift in sales to the long range A/C (7X) etc. ,i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command.
Clever maths; but factualy incorrect.
At present there is about a 3-4 year wait from moving from a small/mid fleet to a long haul one.
Given the shift in sales to the long range A/C (7X) etc. ,i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command.
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Don't forget to factor in the new get out clause. All the bits about time in company, seat locking etc are fine but there's that bit at the end that basically says if your face doesn't fit you'll be overstepped.
How do you allow for that?
How do you allow for that?
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All things being equal, how long in a normal company (ie no low-cost, they have no long haul yet), , can you expect to move right to left on long haul ?
8 to 11 years ? Considering people coming in at 1500 hours instead of 300 for scheduled airlines, you save 2 to 3 years, as a consequence 5 to 8 years meaning at 1500 + 8*500 = 5500 hours you can find a left hand seat in a 7X.
Good luck anywhere else.
For the ex long haul, bus drivers; if only size matters, drive eastbound, etihad, Emirates or else, with all your incredible, unvaluable experience, you should have a Left hand Seat right away....
Bottom line, you decide to go GA charter with an airline like lifestyle,you pass the selections, you enjoy as many days off as you can while commuting at company expenses...And you learn the sops and part A please...
8 to 11 years ? Considering people coming in at 1500 hours instead of 300 for scheduled airlines, you save 2 to 3 years, as a consequence 5 to 8 years meaning at 1500 + 8*500 = 5500 hours you can find a left hand seat in a 7X.
Good luck anywhere else.
For the ex long haul, bus drivers; if only size matters, drive eastbound, etihad, Emirates or else, with all your incredible, unvaluable experience, you should have a Left hand Seat right away....
Bottom line, you decide to go GA charter with an airline like lifestyle,you pass the selections, you enjoy as many days off as you can while commuting at company expenses...And you learn the sops and part A please...
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Smeag's
Surely the company must be allowed to refuse certain people who they deem unsuitable or not capable of being on certain types.
We are all capable of different things, and if my piers have reservations about my ability to fly a g5 or 7x, I would expect them to report that back to the company and to me, and the management to have the backbone and decency to put it in writing to me, as the new policy says will be done, 'I am not suitable for type x,y,z because.....'
At least I am then aware of why they consider me unsuitable, and I can contest it, can work towards improving those skills if they are indeed weak, and finally, I would rather have it in writing why they are refusing me a fleet change than to just bid and receive an anonymous no.
If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political, then surely it is how it should be.
I suppose the bottom line comes back to whether the management is trusted as it is only people who can abuse the system, not a computer bidding software programme.
Surely the company must be allowed to refuse certain people who they deem unsuitable or not capable of being on certain types.
We are all capable of different things, and if my piers have reservations about my ability to fly a g5 or 7x, I would expect them to report that back to the company and to me, and the management to have the backbone and decency to put it in writing to me, as the new policy says will be done, 'I am not suitable for type x,y,z because.....'
At least I am then aware of why they consider me unsuitable, and I can contest it, can work towards improving those skills if they are indeed weak, and finally, I would rather have it in writing why they are refusing me a fleet change than to just bid and receive an anonymous no.
If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political, then surely it is how it should be.
I suppose the bottom line comes back to whether the management is trusted as it is only people who can abuse the system, not a computer bidding software programme.
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Funny
At all, so funny when you say 10 years to big aircraft the netjets supporters come out of the bushes to claim it is less.
So 6-7 years is their deal.....for the people reading this, take their number ! No problems.
Remember the sickness policy, the pension, the leaving rate of people, the due date of senior management (never last more than 4 years in a position, then get sick, promoted to lineflying or leave) and yes do take your invaluable experience to Emirates or alike...........
So 6-7 years is their deal.....for the people reading this, take their number ! No problems.
Remember the sickness policy, the pension, the leaving rate of people, the due date of senior management (never last more than 4 years in a position, then get sick, promoted to lineflying or leave) and yes do take your invaluable experience to Emirates or alike...........
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Holyman,
I am sorry if you took my post that way, it was not at all my intention to point a finger at you.
What happend was that your post made me think. I was at a friends house, a Netjets pilots for several years, and he started reflecting on the things you said and thus I posted a reply, based on his findings.
Your post was highly appreciated mate, believe me, and it has provoked some rather intresting replies so far!
To some others,
did I ever say my BUS experience was considered by myself as over valuable? Did I ever say I did not agree with the way Netjets is doing things? Did I ever say I deserve more because of that?
I dont think so!
I am planning a huge career move/change and I just wanted some honest opinions from people allready there. In order to receive these oponions I needed to give you information....thats all!
If I decide to join, I will take my number and try to fit in as good as possible. I do consider my previous experience valuable in a way that I am not an ab initio pilot anymore. I have a lot to learn with regards to corporate aviation and everything around it but I do have over 10 years experience as a professional pilot.
When the company decides that my previous experience comes in handy somewhere and they want to use it, fine!
If they decide not to use it, fine as well!
And all this withing the reelings and dealings of the company....
But please do not shoot me just for trying to find honest information!
I am sorry if you took my post that way, it was not at all my intention to point a finger at you.
What happend was that your post made me think. I was at a friends house, a Netjets pilots for several years, and he started reflecting on the things you said and thus I posted a reply, based on his findings.
Your post was highly appreciated mate, believe me, and it has provoked some rather intresting replies so far!
To some others,
did I ever say my BUS experience was considered by myself as over valuable? Did I ever say I did not agree with the way Netjets is doing things? Did I ever say I deserve more because of that?
I dont think so!
I am planning a huge career move/change and I just wanted some honest opinions from people allready there. In order to receive these oponions I needed to give you information....thats all!
If I decide to join, I will take my number and try to fit in as good as possible. I do consider my previous experience valuable in a way that I am not an ab initio pilot anymore. I have a lot to learn with regards to corporate aviation and everything around it but I do have over 10 years experience as a professional pilot.
When the company decides that my previous experience comes in handy somewhere and they want to use it, fine!
If they decide not to use it, fine as well!
And all this withing the reelings and dealings of the company....
But please do not shoot me just for trying to find honest information!
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Ok Atlantique.
@CL300....do not be so arrogant about the valuable experience.
We know you like netjets a lot, me thinks you are senior management but will not put a name to your nickname, would be quiet embarrasing wouldn't it?
Everybody has to decide for themselves, but when people tell you you will be captain on a large fleet in not time. They are lying.
Just took a closer look at a AOC. It seems the portion large fleet (h4000 and above) is only 18%.
The 60% captain and 40% fo sounds about right.
Someone was telling that we are selling more big aircraft. That is not true as well. I can inform you that sales are slowing down at the moment.
The last time this happened 2001-2002 we introduced the card of 25 hrs, wouldn't surprise me if we introduce 10 or 15 hr cards now as well.
Anyway the businessmodel has not proven to be succesfull so far. Yes in good years like 2007 we can make money. But when the economy sneezes the rich keep a finger on their wallet as well. And we try to sell them something in the 6 figures worth of euros.......that is a hard job.
So what will happen this year, crewing and hiring will be complete before the summer. Sales will slow down. We will see 10 or 15 hr card beeing introduced.
People who will join now will spent 6 year on the small/midsize fleet, 33% no apu, pension, loss of license, union, sickness policiy will all be worked hard on by senior (and rapidly rotating) management......you will get an answer in 3 years time.
@CL300....do not be so arrogant about the valuable experience.
We know you like netjets a lot, me thinks you are senior management but will not put a name to your nickname, would be quiet embarrasing wouldn't it?
Everybody has to decide for themselves, but when people tell you you will be captain on a large fleet in not time. They are lying.
Just took a closer look at a AOC. It seems the portion large fleet (h4000 and above) is only 18%.
The 60% captain and 40% fo sounds about right.
Someone was telling that we are selling more big aircraft. That is not true as well. I can inform you that sales are slowing down at the moment.
The last time this happened 2001-2002 we introduced the card of 25 hrs, wouldn't surprise me if we introduce 10 or 15 hr cards now as well.
Anyway the businessmodel has not proven to be succesfull so far. Yes in good years like 2007 we can make money. But when the economy sneezes the rich keep a finger on their wallet as well. And we try to sell them something in the 6 figures worth of euros.......that is a hard job.
So what will happen this year, crewing and hiring will be complete before the summer. Sales will slow down. We will see 10 or 15 hr card beeing introduced.
People who will join now will spent 6 year on the small/midsize fleet, 33% no apu, pension, loss of license, union, sickness policiy will all be worked hard on by senior (and rapidly rotating) management......you will get an answer in 3 years time.
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hey holyman !
I love this view of me at senior management level, the discussion took place some time ago..
So feel free to put my name on the top, or if nofear (lol) gimme your bberry pin code I will answer you...
fair game no ?
I love this view of me at senior management level, the discussion took place some time ago..
So feel free to put my name on the top, or if nofear (lol) gimme your bberry pin code I will answer you...
fair game no ?
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south coast.
You'd better sit down. Comfortable? Good. Can't have you fainting and falling over when you read this.
I agree with you.
There, it's out. I agree with pretty much everything in your last post. There should be a system that prevents someone who is not fit for purpose securing a cushy job on a nice aeroplane simply on the basis of their having been in the company long enough or having the right friends. No argument from me there.
BUT (you knew there would be a 'but' didn't you?
). It is how that mechanism is employed. People who are open to criticism as a way of improving would welcome a transparent system that is regulated properly and used in a positive fashion and there's the rub. You said it yourself when you wrote "If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political" (my bold).
Let's be honest, NJE's track record in the fields of transparency, internal politics and settling old scores is not a pretty one. DM himself put it quite succinctly one day when he was told that one of the department supervisors had gone to the gym during his lunch break. "What for? He gets enough exercise stabbing people in the back, jumping to conclusions and running people down". Like him or loathe him I laughed when I heard that and joke or not it hit the nail on the head.
Are things different? I would hope so. The recent change of DOO is a good sign that has removed one of the nastiest, most vindictive people in the company and replaced him with one of the most respected. You can only hope the new guy is strong enough to stay in character. There are still a few weasels there though who will not go quietly into the night. Some will not hesitate to use the vague clauses to play favourites. Get rid of them or clamp down on them and you're another step forward.
Better still, get that union organised. God knows it's been coming for long enough. If you don't have one by the time these new, poorer, sales figures kick in some of you will be very sorry. Ironically enough it will be those who joined last and are saying they don't want a union for fear of rocking the boat and spoiling their chances of LH seat on the large cabin fleets.
Which brings us neatly back to the subject in hand.
Holyman
CL300 management? Methinks not. I've been watching the buggerin here for some time now and though he's close to 'them' I doubt he's a desk driver.
Try someone else. How about gregwood? New member, one post to his name and wrote "i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command". Notice the "I"? Slip of the keyboard? Unintentional giveaway? Wishful thinking or a red herring? That's the trouble with the internet, you just can't tell.
You'd better sit down. Comfortable? Good. Can't have you fainting and falling over when you read this.
I agree with you.
There, it's out. I agree with pretty much everything in your last post. There should be a system that prevents someone who is not fit for purpose securing a cushy job on a nice aeroplane simply on the basis of their having been in the company long enough or having the right friends. No argument from me there.
BUT (you knew there would be a 'but' didn't you?
). It is how that mechanism is employed. People who are open to criticism as a way of improving would welcome a transparent system that is regulated properly and used in a positive fashion and there's the rub. You said it yourself when you wrote "If this is done properly, and it is not abused and made political" (my bold). Let's be honest, NJE's track record in the fields of transparency, internal politics and settling old scores is not a pretty one. DM himself put it quite succinctly one day when he was told that one of the department supervisors had gone to the gym during his lunch break. "What for? He gets enough exercise stabbing people in the back, jumping to conclusions and running people down". Like him or loathe him I laughed when I heard that and joke or not it hit the nail on the head.
Are things different? I would hope so. The recent change of DOO is a good sign that has removed one of the nastiest, most vindictive people in the company and replaced him with one of the most respected. You can only hope the new guy is strong enough to stay in character. There are still a few weasels there though who will not go quietly into the night. Some will not hesitate to use the vague clauses to play favourites. Get rid of them or clamp down on them and you're another step forward.
Better still, get that union organised. God knows it's been coming for long enough. If you don't have one by the time these new, poorer, sales figures kick in some of you will be very sorry. Ironically enough it will be those who joined last and are saying they don't want a union for fear of rocking the boat and spoiling their chances of LH seat on the large cabin fleets.
Which brings us neatly back to the subject in hand.
Holyman
CL300 management? Methinks not. I've been watching the bugger
in here for some time now and though he's close to 'them' I doubt he's a desk driver. Try someone else. How about gregwood? New member, one post to his name and wrote "i can hardly expect people to wait 11 years for a large fleet command". Notice the "I"? Slip of the keyboard? Unintentional giveaway? Wishful thinking or a red herring? That's the trouble with the internet, you just can't tell.
Last edited by Smeagel; 23rd Feb 2008 at 12:43.
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No probs Holyman...
Could someone please elaborate a little bit on those sales slowing down, business models not working etc....
I just thought NJE was one of the more succesfull businesses in aviation untill now...
I am in a very comfortable position at the moment but I have always liked the way of doing things at NJE....Just dont want to find myself in the slum again within 3 years time....
Keep te high level of replies coming...
Thanks
Could someone please elaborate a little bit on those sales slowing down, business models not working etc....
I just thought NJE was one of the more succesfull businesses in aviation untill now...
I am in a very comfortable position at the moment but I have always liked the way of doing things at NJE....Just dont want to find myself in the slum again within 3 years time....
Keep te high level of replies coming...
Thanks
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Smeagle is human...or perhaps an afro-nome?
Anyhow, I agree with what you say too, although within every organisation and policy there is scope for abuse and mismanagement.
Hopefully a new chapter has been started at NJ and it will take time for the management to gain the trust of the 'oldies', not that I fall into that group, but as the saying goes,
'We have to start somewhere...'
I can only say I think we need to see how the policy works before it is written off.
Man goes to a doctor and says, 'doctor, i have broken my arm in 2 places....'
Doctor says, 'dont go back there again...'
Anyhow, I agree with what you say too, although within every organisation and policy there is scope for abuse and mismanagement.
Hopefully a new chapter has been started at NJ and it will take time for the management to gain the trust of the 'oldies', not that I fall into that group, but as the saying goes,
'We have to start somewhere...'
I can only say I think we need to see how the policy works before it is written off.
Man goes to a doctor and says, 'doctor, i have broken my arm in 2 places....'
Doctor says, 'dont go back there again...'