Empty leg selling

[starshiptrooper]

Thanks in advance for your comments. I'm doing a research project on the empty leg section of the private heli/turbo prop/jet market.

I know Avinode are the leaders in the jet market at the moment, but I would be interested and grateful to hear of any other companies who have tried to sell the empty/dead legs and failed/suceeded (who are they?) and for what reasons ?

Problem areas I see as follows :

1. If the already paid leg decides to cancel or change times considerable this could have implication on the empty leg if sold. What normally happens on these occasions ?

2. Do you sell the empty leg at the normal full price return journey or just the single leg price....if single leg what happens if problem 1 occurs ?


Thanks once again for you time.

Rgds

SST

[J32/41]

It doesn't really work that well due to the the 1st point you made.

If the original flight details change the empty leg just gets cancelled-simple as! The person who has bought the empty just gets refunded.

[Phil Brockwell]

I would disagree, the profits that come from combining 2 legs would more than cover the occasional loss of a principle leg that would be at least part covered by cancellation costs. I cannot think that of more than one operator who would drop a client because a front haul dropped off. Knock on delays are a natural risk of this type of op, but totally dumping a flight would be commercial suicide. I would be interested if you are aware of this happening, or if this simply an assumption?

Phil

[Suppers Ready]

When costing an ad hoc charter, empty legs are costed into the price.
Re selling the empty legs, it depends where it is going to. Generally you would sell empty legs cheaper than normal as they have already been paid for. It would be up to the empty leg buyer whether they took it one way or return
Re cancellation by the principal, it depends on the contract, how much is due when they cancel. Airlines will not run ad hoc charters unless they are making money on it. If the principal cancels and there is not enough money the whole thing will be cancelled. It would commercial suicide to run ad hoc charters at a loss. If the empty leg buyer could be persuaded to pay the price quoted to the original principal, the the flight would operate... then there would be more empty legs to sell!
FYi not alot of empty legs are sold - there is also a few websites for the sale of empty legs - just google it

hope this helps

SR

[Phil Brockwell]

SR, interesting to hear how your operation deals with one ways and back hauls, I guess we all do it differently. For my ops we price one ways at halfway the difference between the incremental cost of taking the charter and normal retail. This way the client gets a good price, I get good profits and can honour the flights on the occasional loss making flight if the principal falls apart.

In one month last year (August) we managed to sell 12 flights to the Med and gain 7 back hauls.

I assumed that everyone did it like this?

Phil

[starshiptrooper]

Thank very much for you comments so far.

The reason I ask is as follows. There is a company coming to the market in the next few months that offers the empty legs but with a very clever bit of software. The way is works is as such. Say an AOC is flying a one way Cardiff to Inverness then flying back empty. The AOC enters the empty leg on the online system (and his hourly rate cost of the particular aircraft), and other AOC's flying empty legs (hopefully) do the same all over UK.

Say Mr Rich Punter wants to go from Glasgow to Bristol, his broker would generally look for operators near either end of dest/dep to do this flight and Mr Rich Punter pays the whole return journey.

If the broker uses the system explained above the system automatically calculated the diversion costs of a suitable aircraft of all empty legs in the area to and from dep/dest airports and the system finds the one most suitable, if there are any. Negotiations then take place between broker and AOC of actual costs and who gets what. There is actually no reason to discount the leg as the Mr Punter knows no different, he gets an aircraft turn up and take him to where he wants to go. He gets his aircraft and the AOC and broker make more money and the company managing the matching system taked a fee.

If the original legs is cancelled the empty leg now pays for itsself and the AOC has another empty leg to sell.

Any thoughts ?

[Phil Brockwell]

Here we go again, similar things have been tried, there are a couple of points. Operating aircraft is complex and qualitative. The internet deals with transactions efficiently but fails to qualitate like for like products.

When people are looking for products that are not a like for like commodity they want to deal with a person with credibility that they can trust, using an operator that is safe and reliable is important.

I see this going down the same lines as onlineheartsurgery.com and engagementringsRus.com...there are some things peple will not buy on the net.

Phil

[Monkey Boy]

In my experience these things tend to fall over because they rely on operators keeping the information current. Fact of the matter is, they don't and people who use the site lose faith in it and then stop using it.
As Mr Brockwell says, there are some things that simply shouldn't be bought on the internet.

[J32/41]

Totally agree with the above facts that Phil mentioned, its all been done before.

[Flintstone]

I see this going down the same lines as onlineheartsurgery.com and engagementringsRus.com...there are some things peple will not buy on the net.

Bugger.


Anyone want to buy a couple of domain names? Going cheap.

[Global Warrior]

Selling Empty Legs

Theres a company called BizJet Express trying to sell seats individually on empty legs which is a novel way for operators to earn free money. Ive been watching them for a while and will continue to do so. Good luck to them.

GW

Oh, pull the other one, you smarmy lad - you work for BizJet Express (your email attests to this) and are abusing this forum's facilities by trying to punt your product. You tried the same thing in December. I'll be watching you; try it again & I'll retract your privileges. 4HP

[starshiptrooper]

Thanks very much for your time and comments. If anybody knows of anybody who has tried this I would much appreciate their details or pm if poss as would be very interested in having a chat.

Thanks once again

Good flying !!

[Flintstone]

Oh, pull the other one, you smarmy lad - you work for BizJet Express (your email attests to this) and are abusing this forum's facilities by trying to punt your product. You tried the same thing in December. I'll be watching you; try it again & I'll retract your privileges. 4HP

Makes me laugh. 'Pwned' is the phrase I believe?

[Global Warrior]

I dont work for them........... i own the domain which is rented to them!!!!!!

[Phil Brockwell]

Is that a growth business? renting domain names?

[Global Warrior]

actually, yes, so is selling them..... ive just sold another for $10,000 that i paid £24.00 for 3 years ago.......... but its off topic..... which was about empty legs and empty legs are an undesirable necessity in the aviation business and many companies are trying to find their niche in marketing, selling and profiting from the sales of empty legs........ google it and you will find many. The company that rent my domain are one of those companies trying to establish alternative lines of revenue for aircraft charter operators and good luck to them........... whatever the modertor thinks

GW

[Flintstone]

....whatever the moderator thinks....

I wonder exactly what he does think?

After all, calling him "muppet" on a forum in which you presumably wish to remain is hardly the smartest move

[Global Warrior]

i think posting the way he did with out getting his facts right was not the wise est move on his part either......... however, i immediately removed the comment knowing it wasn't the right thing to do on my part........... but again its hardly anything to do with the topic which is empty legs...........

[Flintstone]

Perhaps it might be better to declare any vested interests in future? While you might not work for the company concerned you clearly have links with them, perhaps more than you admit.

As for insulting a moderator or what they have to say about topics it's quite simple. This is their site. If you/we don't like rules such as non-advertising there's always the red box with the white cross in the top right hand corner.

Thanks Flintstone. I've been called worse than a muppet in my time, in many cases, probably deservably so. Nontheless I can't stand by & watch crud developing, hence my intervention. Can we get back to the topic, if there's any merit in it please? 4HP

[Epsilon minus]

"wise est" ? Why is spelling so poor these days. I would suggest that the author of such poor English is the "Muppet" and for that matter why is name "Muppet" considered to be an insult? 4p moderator please disqualify this man for bad English.