Citation Crash in California
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Citation Crash in California
Anybody have any more info on what possibly happened to this flight?
From NBC
Four people were killed after a small plane that left Hailey, Idaho this morning crashed upon landing at a Southern California airport.
Flames and smoke are seen coming from a plane crash at the McClellan-Palomar Airport Tuesday morning. There were no survivors.
Officials say the Cessna 560-twin engine jet skidded of the runway at the McClellan-Palomar Airport Tuesday at 6:45 a.m., crashed into a building and burst into flames.
The plane, which can hold up to six passengers, was coming from Hailey, Idaho, a town near the Sun Valley ski resort.
Helicopter video showed smoke and flames coming from the crash site. Only the tail section of the plane appeared to be intact.
The Federal Aviation Administration says all four on board were killed. The airport 30 miles north of San Diego has been closed. It serves private planes, business jets and two commuter airlines - America West Express and United Express, both of which operate turboprops out of the facility.
S.C.
From NBC
Four people were killed after a small plane that left Hailey, Idaho this morning crashed upon landing at a Southern California airport.
Flames and smoke are seen coming from a plane crash at the McClellan-Palomar Airport Tuesday morning. There were no survivors.
Officials say the Cessna 560-twin engine jet skidded of the runway at the McClellan-Palomar Airport Tuesday at 6:45 a.m., crashed into a building and burst into flames.
The plane, which can hold up to six passengers, was coming from Hailey, Idaho, a town near the Sun Valley ski resort.
Helicopter video showed smoke and flames coming from the crash site. Only the tail section of the plane appeared to be intact.
The Federal Aviation Administration says all four on board were killed. The airport 30 miles north of San Diego has been closed. It serves private planes, business jets and two commuter airlines - America West Express and United Express, both of which operate turboprops out of the facility.
S.C.
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KCRQ 241453Z AUTO 06006KT 10SM CLR 14/M09 A2993=
KCRQ 241553Z AUTO 08006KT 10SM CLR 14/M07 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP142 T01441072=
KCRQ 241653Z AUTO 05003KT 10SM CLR 19/M07 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP147 T01941067=
Rwy Length Land Dist Avail Approach*
24 4897x150 4897' ILS 108.70 - 245º
Whatever went wrong, it sure seems like over runs are in the news more often these days. This will eventually affect all operators in ways yet to be determined.
CRQ has never been my favorite airport to visit in bizjets because of the shortish length and fair-to-poor condition of the runway. However, it is widely considered to be adequate at lower operating weights for most bizjet types, including 500 series Cessnas. Over the past few years, the airport has added many new corporate hangars and glitzed up their image as it transforms itself from a suburban prop GA airport into an upscale corporate jet port. The final step of extending the runway is said to be in the works for the near future.
Sincere condolences to all who knew them,
Westhawk
KCRQ 241553Z AUTO 08006KT 10SM CLR 14/M07 A2995 RMK AO2 SLP142 T01441072=
KCRQ 241653Z AUTO 05003KT 10SM CLR 19/M07 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP147 T01941067=
Rwy Length Land Dist Avail Approach*
24 4897x150 4897' ILS 108.70 - 245º
Whatever went wrong, it sure seems like over runs are in the news more often these days. This will eventually affect all operators in ways yet to be determined.
CRQ has never been my favorite airport to visit in bizjets because of the shortish length and fair-to-poor condition of the runway. However, it is widely considered to be adequate at lower operating weights for most bizjet types, including 500 series Cessnas. Over the past few years, the airport has added many new corporate hangars and glitzed up their image as it transforms itself from a suburban prop GA airport into an upscale corporate jet port. The final step of extending the runway is said to be in the works for the near future.
Sincere condolences to all who knew them,
Westhawk
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Media wx reports are strong Santa Ana winds, which are seasonal easterlies (from my limited experience in the region).
Based on this I'm puzzled why he wasn't landing 06.
Based on this I'm puzzled why he wasn't landing 06.
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why not land on 6? runway 24 is prefered for noise abatement and a steeper than standard ILS GS at 3.2 degrees.
ALSO, that witness was in the navy and worked on planes at nearby NAS...he said in the full interview that the LANDING GEAR was up/retracted...according to the associated press.
YIKES
I think fatigue played a part...
jon
ALSO, that witness was in the navy and worked on planes at nearby NAS...he said in the full interview that the LANDING GEAR was up/retracted...according to the associated press.
YIKES
I think fatigue played a part...
jon
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From the LA Times:
SAN DIEGO -- Four people were killed when a private jet crashed at McClellan-Palomar Airport this morning, fire officials said.
The twin-engine Cessna was landing in clear weather about 6:40 a.m. when it crashed, then flipped over and caught fire before hitting a utility structure, authorities said.
Early reports said the three passengers were killed. Later, a fourth person, the pilot, was added to the list of the dead on the flight, which took off from Idaho.
There was no immediate cause for the crash, but the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board have begun their investigations.
Rescue and fire crews from the airport and the Carlsbad fire departments immediately responded, officials said. The airport is in Carlsbad, about 30 miles north of San Diego. It is used by private planes and two commuter airlines — America West Express and United Express.
The facility's tower had yet to open for the day, said Bill Polick, a spokesman for the San Diego County Department of Public Works, but that is not unusual. The airport is open 24 hours a day, but is staffed with controllers only during the busy hours.
The aircraft was registered to Goship Air LLC of Ketchum, Idaho, authorities said. The dead were not immediately publicly identified.
End of Article.
Did some research and came up with this:
N86CE - Citation Type C560
Filed KSUN - to - KCRQ
Route: HLE CLEIN BERYL BLD TNP
Scheduled arrival 6:36 PST
Filed for FL380
The aircraft operated mainly in California - there were a couple of trips
to Denver and Aspen (no doubt loaded with snow skis ...etc)
SAN DIEGO -- Four people were killed when a private jet crashed at McClellan-Palomar Airport this morning, fire officials said.
The twin-engine Cessna was landing in clear weather about 6:40 a.m. when it crashed, then flipped over and caught fire before hitting a utility structure, authorities said.
Early reports said the three passengers were killed. Later, a fourth person, the pilot, was added to the list of the dead on the flight, which took off from Idaho.
There was no immediate cause for the crash, but the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Transportation Safety Board have begun their investigations.
Rescue and fire crews from the airport and the Carlsbad fire departments immediately responded, officials said. The airport is in Carlsbad, about 30 miles north of San Diego. It is used by private planes and two commuter airlines — America West Express and United Express.
The facility's tower had yet to open for the day, said Bill Polick, a spokesman for the San Diego County Department of Public Works, but that is not unusual. The airport is open 24 hours a day, but is staffed with controllers only during the busy hours.
The aircraft was registered to Goship Air LLC of Ketchum, Idaho, authorities said. The dead were not immediately publicly identified.
End of Article.
Did some research and came up with this:
N86CE - Citation Type C560
Filed KSUN - to - KCRQ
Route: HLE CLEIN BERYL BLD TNP
Scheduled arrival 6:36 PST
Filed for FL380
The aircraft operated mainly in California - there were a couple of trips
to Denver and Aspen (no doubt loaded with snow skis ...etc)
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interesting stuff indeed. FL380 says to me that this was not a single pilot citation.
C560 is a pretty new bird with lots of nice bells and whistles(maybe enhanced groun prox too), one earlier report called it a different type built in 1994.
as to those who want to wait for the investigation, that is just fine...wait for about one year before reading anything on the forum I guess.
why did I mention fatigue? Well arrving at 6:36 pacific standard time means to me that they took off some time around 4 am pacific, which means they were probably (the pilots that is) were awake since 2 am. Maybe not alot of sleep. They were at high altitude basking in the rising sun and descended into the darkness of civil twilight (sunrise there about 6:50 am pst).
Someone who seems to be a qualified observer reports that the GEAR was up.
YIKES.
If I am speculating, I think it is informed speculating and not just, "gee those guys must be #$%^&*up)"
AS to the santa anna's, well the metars don't bare that out with the winds from the east about 5 knots.
I do hope you all go to airnav.com and look up KCRQ. you can pull the approach plate and read the funny restrictions and some of the other oddities of the airport.
some research I did shows the citation ultra encore (560) can stop in 880 metres just shy of 2800 feet. even landing beyond glideslope they should have had adequate room. of course GEAR up spoils the whole landing equation; the reduced parasite drag and all that rot.
An instant of "microsleep" caused a DC8 cargo plane to crash at the US Navy base in Guantanamo bay, cuba a few years ago. the crew was luckier though , fell asleep on base to final turn, but survived.
C560 is a pretty new bird with lots of nice bells and whistles(maybe enhanced groun prox too), one earlier report called it a different type built in 1994.
as to those who want to wait for the investigation, that is just fine...wait for about one year before reading anything on the forum I guess.
why did I mention fatigue? Well arrving at 6:36 pacific standard time means to me that they took off some time around 4 am pacific, which means they were probably (the pilots that is) were awake since 2 am. Maybe not alot of sleep. They were at high altitude basking in the rising sun and descended into the darkness of civil twilight (sunrise there about 6:50 am pst).
Someone who seems to be a qualified observer reports that the GEAR was up.
YIKES.
If I am speculating, I think it is informed speculating and not just, "gee those guys must be #$%^&*up)"
AS to the santa anna's, well the metars don't bare that out with the winds from the east about 5 knots.
I do hope you all go to airnav.com and look up KCRQ. you can pull the approach plate and read the funny restrictions and some of the other oddities of the airport.
some research I did shows the citation ultra encore (560) can stop in 880 metres just shy of 2800 feet. even landing beyond glideslope they should have had adequate room. of course GEAR up spoils the whole landing equation; the reduced parasite drag and all that rot.
An instant of "microsleep" caused a DC8 cargo plane to crash at the US Navy base in Guantanamo bay, cuba a few years ago. the crew was luckier though , fell asleep on base to final turn, but survived.
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smartori
I hope you will post the link to the flight aware site, I had not heard of it before.
I would also like to correct one thing in a previous post. it seems that this plane is a C560 built in 1994 which would make it a Citation V(five) and not the ultra encore I mentioned.
both part 91 and 135 regs would require some sort of terrain warning system.
I think back to the helios air crash, could this plane have lost Pressurization in a subtle way and cause the pilots to become incapacitated and only partially awakening at lower altitude?ATC tapes will help us understand this aspect better, but that fast that low is either fooling around or being very ill in some way or another.
j
I hope you will post the link to the flight aware site, I had not heard of it before.
I would also like to correct one thing in a previous post. it seems that this plane is a C560 built in 1994 which would make it a Citation V(five) and not the ultra encore I mentioned.
both part 91 and 135 regs would require some sort of terrain warning system.
I think back to the helios air crash, could this plane have lost Pressurization in a subtle way and cause the pilots to become incapacitated and only partially awakening at lower altitude?ATC tapes will help us understand this aspect better, but that fast that low is either fooling around or being very ill in some way or another.
j
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Ah smartori, you stole my thunder! Good work. Here is the last few points on the track log. It usually disappears from Flightaware after about 24 hours.
06:34 3310N/11704W 314 8100
06:34 3310N/11705W 304 7100
06:35 3308N/11709W 307 5600
06:35 3309N/11711W 262 4100
06:36 3308N/11715W 277 2300
06:36 3308N/11715W 209 1200
06:37 3307N/11718W 227 300
One of my friends at the airport was making the same speculation about fatigue as Jondc9 was and my calculations of when they must have awakened were even earlier than his. If they ever got to bed at all that is. That's charter, hope ya like it. It will probably be some time before we know their schedule prior to the accident. And that is just one of many details to be looked into. As ever, the facts will come out in time and we will probably learn what happened eventually. Until then, informed speculation will of course be practiced!
Best regards,
Westhawk
06:34 3310N/11704W 314 8100
06:34 3310N/11705W 304 7100
06:35 3308N/11709W 307 5600
06:35 3309N/11711W 262 4100
06:36 3308N/11715W 277 2300
06:36 3308N/11715W 209 1200
06:37 3307N/11718W 227 300
One of my friends at the airport was making the same speculation about fatigue as Jondc9 was and my calculations of when they must have awakened were even earlier than his. If they ever got to bed at all that is. That's charter, hope ya like it. It will probably be some time before we know their schedule prior to the accident. And that is just one of many details to be looked into. As ever, the facts will come out in time and we will probably learn what happened eventually. Until then, informed speculation will of course be practiced!
Best regards,
Westhawk
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Dear Westhawk and all:
the NTSB has just reported that the landing gear was down on the citation in question and that a cockpit voice recorder has been recovered in good shape.
(associated press article for the above)
BUT very interestingly enough, they have reported that they cannot find any skid marks on the runway, perhaps the plane did not even touchdown. I have heard many witness reports and sometimes the witness is using incorrect terminology. could the witness have said that the gear did not touch the runway and was misquoted as saying the gear wasn't down? who knows?
the hours of transition between full dark and full light and vice versa are among the most difficult for pilots.
if the radar data is correct, it is amazing, do recall that near CARLSBAD airport is the NAS that "top gun" was based on. (miramar) and the famous high speed low altitude pass(?)
jondc9
the NTSB has just reported that the landing gear was down on the citation in question and that a cockpit voice recorder has been recovered in good shape.
(associated press article for the above)
BUT very interestingly enough, they have reported that they cannot find any skid marks on the runway, perhaps the plane did not even touchdown. I have heard many witness reports and sometimes the witness is using incorrect terminology. could the witness have said that the gear did not touch the runway and was misquoted as saying the gear wasn't down? who knows?
the hours of transition between full dark and full light and vice versa are among the most difficult for pilots.
if the radar data is correct, it is amazing, do recall that near CARLSBAD airport is the NAS that "top gun" was based on. (miramar) and the famous high speed low altitude pass(?)
jondc9
The NTSB preliminary report indicates that multiple witnesses reported that the aircraft touched down and deployed reversers. The reversers when then seen to be stowed and a go-around attempted before the aircraft struck the localizer platform. Full text follows:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NTSB Identification: SEA06MA047
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 24, 2006 in Carlsbad, CA
Aircraft: Cessna 560, registration: N86CE
Injuries: 4 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On January 24, 2006, approximately 0640 Pacific standard time, a Cessna Citation 560, N86CE, impacted the localizer antenna platform during an apparent aborted landing on Runway 24 at McClellan-Palomar Airport, Carlsbad, California. The two airline transport pilots and their two passengers received fatal injuries, and the aircraft, which was owned by GOSHIP AIR, LLC, of Ketchum, Idaho, was destroyed by the impact sequence and the post crash fire. The 14 CFR Part 91 personal transportation flight, which departed Friedman Memorial Airport, Hailey, Idaho, at 0600 mountain standard time, had canceled its IFR flight plan, and was executing a visual approach in visual meteorological conditions at the time of the accident.
According to numerous witnesses, the aircraft came across the runway threshold at a speed significantly higher than they had observed with other aircraft of the same or similar model. It reportedly touched down more than 1,500 feet down the runway, whereupon the thrust reverses were deployed and then ultimately stowed. The aircraft then lifted off the surface near the departure end of the runway, but its landing gear impacted the localizer platform structure, and its left wing tip collided with a platform access ladder attached to the far left side of the platform. The aircraft then traveled approximately 400 feet passed that point, whereupon it settled to the terrain, and then impacted much of the external surface of a 150 foot long commercial self-storage building. Just after coming to rest at the west end of the storage building, the aircraft burst into flames, and except for the empennage and engines, was almost totally consumed by the ensuing fire.
Index for Jan2006 | Index of months
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------
NTSB Identification: SEA06MA047
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Tuesday, January 24, 2006 in Carlsbad, CA
Aircraft: Cessna 560, registration: N86CE
Injuries: 4 Fatal.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On January 24, 2006, approximately 0640 Pacific standard time, a Cessna Citation 560, N86CE, impacted the localizer antenna platform during an apparent aborted landing on Runway 24 at McClellan-Palomar Airport, Carlsbad, California. The two airline transport pilots and their two passengers received fatal injuries, and the aircraft, which was owned by GOSHIP AIR, LLC, of Ketchum, Idaho, was destroyed by the impact sequence and the post crash fire. The 14 CFR Part 91 personal transportation flight, which departed Friedman Memorial Airport, Hailey, Idaho, at 0600 mountain standard time, had canceled its IFR flight plan, and was executing a visual approach in visual meteorological conditions at the time of the accident.
According to numerous witnesses, the aircraft came across the runway threshold at a speed significantly higher than they had observed with other aircraft of the same or similar model. It reportedly touched down more than 1,500 feet down the runway, whereupon the thrust reverses were deployed and then ultimately stowed. The aircraft then lifted off the surface near the departure end of the runway, but its landing gear impacted the localizer platform structure, and its left wing tip collided with a platform access ladder attached to the far left side of the platform. The aircraft then traveled approximately 400 feet passed that point, whereupon it settled to the terrain, and then impacted much of the external surface of a 150 foot long commercial self-storage building. Just after coming to rest at the west end of the storage building, the aircraft burst into flames, and except for the empennage and engines, was almost totally consumed by the ensuing fire.
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Thank you WESTHAWK for posting the NTSB report(prelim). I am on their mailing list and haven't gotten it or the ebersol crash either.
WOW.
there is an axiom that once the thrust reversers are out you should stay on the ground(not reattempt takeoff).
I say that somehow the southwest midway crash has put some things in people's minds.
But if the thrust reverser deployment lights indicated thrust reverers were not deployed on the citation then taking off might have been the right thing to do.
yikes
jon
WOW.
there is an axiom that once the thrust reversers are out you should stay on the ground(not reattempt takeoff).
I say that somehow the southwest midway crash has put some things in people's minds.
But if the thrust reverser deployment lights indicated thrust reverers were not deployed on the citation then taking off might have been the right thing to do.
yikes
jon
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Originally Posted by smartori
08:00PM 4037N/7352W 161 4400
08:01PM 4034N/7353W 273 6700 climbing
08:01PM 4032N/7355W 464 37000 climbing
08:02PM 4033N/7348W 310 7000 descending
08:02PM 4032N/7348W 273 7100 climbing
^^^^ 4000ft to 37000 ft in 1 minute????
^^^^ back down to 7000 the minute after????
hmm?
EDIT: also, looking at others I see alot have speeds similar to this
07:32PM 4221N/8715W 328 9000 descending
07:32PM 4221N/8717W 280 8200 descending
07:33PM 4219N/8720W 297 32000 climbing << (nb: there is goes again)
07:33PM 4219N/8723W 270 7500 descending
07:34PM 4218N/8725W 278 7200 descending
I thought the speed restrictions for aircraft under 10000ft was 250knots?
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You're talking about data dropouts here - not real uncommon. If you plot the data in a 3-D grid it's very plain that an occasional point is inconsistent with the remainder, and should be properly omitted.
While I've certainly seen higher quality data, the tracks you have shown us are no cause for alarm - they're merely raw data that need some screening.
While I've certainly seen higher quality data, the tracks you have shown us are no cause for alarm - they're merely raw data that need some screening.