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-   -   Unusual air combat combinations (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/656097-unusual-air-combat-combinations.html)

AnotherFSO 30th Nov 2023 05:48

Unusual air combat combinations
 
Just another idle musing.

I'd not previously heard of this circumstance of a Meteor shooting down a Canberra. From Wikipedia: "During the Suez Crisis, the RAF performed high altitude reconnaissance flights over Syria by English Electric Canberra aircraft from bases in Cyprus. Lacking radar to track the aircraft, the Syrian Air Force developed a ground spotter network that reported information by telephone to intercept the flights. On 6 November 1956, a Syrian Meteor shot down a Canberra of No. 13 Squadron RAF, which crashed in Lebanon."

Which other unusual or little-known aircraft combat combinations can you think of? I'm particularly interested in jets, but there's no need to limit it to that. Open slather please...

DaveReidUK 30th Nov 2023 06:38

I thought the Canberra had been shot down by a MiG-17 ?

Previous thread on the topic: Operation Musketeer (Suez) - PPRuNe Forums

campbeex 30th Nov 2023 09:08

Lightning vs Spitfire
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8bee32c0aa.jpg

Quemerford 30th Nov 2023 10:22

Not little-known, but the Gnat/Ajeet vs Sabre and Hunter vs Sabre clashes during India/Pakistan wars are an obvious candidate.

sablatnic 30th Nov 2023 11:11

Heard of a Piper L4 downing a Fieseler Storch on 11/4-1945, does that count as unusual?

treadigraph 30th Nov 2023 11:21

Irresistibly reminded of Airfix's Dog Fight Double sets, though I think they were fairly sensible combinations...

Zaxis 30th Nov 2023 12:24

How about Spitfire vs Spitfire? RAF vs Egyptian AF 1947. Last RAF air to air kill.

chevvron 30th Nov 2023 13:58

I remember the tale of a Bf109 which was downed during WW2 - by an Avro Rota autogyro (or it could have been a Cierva C30).
Doing radar calibrations south of Portsmouth when the '109 jumped him thinking it would be an easy kill.
After trying to dodge him, the 109 dived on him, the autogyro pilot simply slowed right down very quickly and the '109 overshot him straight into the sea.

DogTailRed2 30th Nov 2023 14:53

On the subject of dissimilar air combat (re: Lightning v Spitfire) wasn't Brazil involved in a war with a neighbour. Brazil had P51's and the neighbour had MiG 21's? The Mustangs all ended up at the CAF in exchange for T33's.
A night fighter Dornier 217 downed a Russian B25 over Germany during a night raid. B25 was on a training flight and lost.
Zero's v Piper Cubs, Pearl Harbour.
Tomcats v Zero's in "Final Countdown".

teeteringhead 30th Nov 2023 14:59


I remember the tale of a Bf109 which was downed during WW2 - by an Avro Rota autogyro (or it could have been a Cierva C30).
Doing radar calibrations south of Portsmouth when the '109 jumped him thinking it would be an easy kill.
After trying to dodge him, the 109 dived on him, the autogyro pilot simply slowed right down very quickly and the '109 overshot him straight into the sea.
Heard a similar tale about a Lysander. Had a 109 on its tail so slowed down - flaps, slats and anything else; 109 had to fly past and was hit by a Bren Gun from the Lysander's door....

Good tale even if not true.......

Dr Jekyll 30th Nov 2023 15:02

During a Belize crisis in the 70s there was much speculation about how Ark Royal's Phantoms and even Buccaneers might be able to down a P51.

kenparry 30th Nov 2023 15:05

Last RAF air to air kill was not a Spitfire - .............. the infamous Jaguar shootdown by an RAF Germany F-4

longer ron 30th Nov 2023 15:34

One of the most amusing combats was Blackburn Roc v Heinkel 59,D.H. Clarke DFC,AFC wrote an autobio - it sits happily on my bookshelf :)

What were they like to fly D H Clarke DFC,AFC


“A well known engagement involved a 2 AACU (Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit) ROC, L3085, and Plt Off D. H. Clarke, who had painted a red ‘Saint’ (the Leslie Charteris character) in a red-framed yellow diamond on each side of the rear fuselage of his ‘own’ Roc. On 26 September 1940 he was sent out to search for survivors in the water 15 miles (24 km) south-west of St Catherines Point. With Sergeant Hunt in the gun turret – which, unusually for 2 AACU Rocs, was fully armed – he took off in the late afternoon. As he instituted a square search in the area indicated, he noticed what he thought was a Swordfish also searching about 3 miles (5 km) away.After about 45 minutes of fruitless search in the gathering gloom, he suddenly noticed that the Swordfish, now only half a mile away, was in fact a twin engined floatplane. Out of curiosity, wondering what it was, he flew towards it: and then suddenly realised it was a Heinkel He 59, a German aircraft probably on the same air-sea rescue task as himself. Unsure as to whether he should open fire on an aircraft on such a humanitarian mission, he flew across its nose with Hunt training his turret at it.

As he did so the German nose gunner opened fire with his 7.9mm machine gun, and Hunt returned fire, his tracer pouring into the Heinkel’s fuselage. After the pandemonium and shock of his first action, Clarke swung on to a parallel course, and re-established communication with Hunt , whose intercom lead had been pulled out. The Heinkel turned for France, skimming the waves. Happily the twin engined bi-plane was even slower than the Roc, with a top speed at sea level of only 137 mph (220 kph), and Clarke was able to gain on his adversary; although he was still faced with the prospect of having to drop a wing to enable Hunt to open fire, even though his propeller was skimming the wave tops.

At 300 yards range he dropped a wing, and Hunt opened fire with another broadside. The Heinkel replied from all three gun positions, nose, dorsal and ventral, a single machine gun in each, but Clarke had to lift the wing after only a few seconds to avoid side-slipping into the sea, causing the last few rounds of Hunt’s burst to shoot harmlessly up into the air. The two aircraft continued these brief exchanges of fire for about 25 minutes, until the coast of France was looming up. Both aircraft were hit, and one of the Heinkel’s gunners stopped firing; but just as Clarke was about to turn away, the Roc was hit in the engine.

It faltered, and Clarke switched to the reserve 17 gal (77 ltr) tank, pulling up and away. Just as he thought he might have to ditch, the Perseus picked up, and he nursed the damaged aircraft back to Gosport. But before he could taxi in the engine stopped, out of fuel. Clarke claimed the Heinkel as ‘Damaged’.

On his return his groundcrew found two incendiary bullets in the main fuel tank, above which he sat. They had entered low down in the petrol, which had extinguished them; slightly higher, in the explosive fuel/air mixture above, and the Roc would have been ‘missing in action’. This action was almost certainly the nearest the Blackburn Roc ever came to destroying a German aircraft in combat”.

Quemerford 30th Nov 2023 16:26


Originally Posted by Zaxis (Post 11548717)
How about Spitfire vs Spitfire? RAF vs Egyptian AF 1947. Last RAF air to air kill.

Probably not the last, but F/L John Granville-White's MiG-15 kill on 29 June 1953 post-dates the above by six years or so.

BSD 30th Nov 2023 18:34

Wasn't there a Royal Australian Navy Se Fury that shot down an Auster which managed to get airborne without a pilot from Bankstown?

The RAN got called in after the RAAF couldn't get it in a jet fighter, IIRC.


treadigraph 30th Nov 2023 19:24


Originally Posted by BSD (Post 11548916)
Wasn't there a Royal Australian Navy Se Fury that shot down an Auster which managed to get airborne without a pilot from Bankstown?

The RAN got called in after the RAAF couldn't get it in a jet fighter, IIRC.

There was!

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/18328

Dr Jekyll 1st Dec 2023 05:44


Originally Posted by Quemerford (Post 11548860)
Probably not the last, but F/L John Granville-White's MiG-15 kill on 29 June 1953 post-dates the above by six years or so.

Wasn't that while flying with the USAF? RAF pilots have made kills while flying with the USAF in Korea and the FAA in the Falklands. If they count as RAF kills then the last one was 1982.

Procrastinus 1st Dec 2023 08:40

The Russians tried to shoot down Ladislav Bezak's Zlin 226 with a jet while escaping to the West, but luckily failed. He said after - 'It was the best aerobatic display I ever flew'!

NutLoose 1st Dec 2023 15:32

Want to watch one?


A Venezuelan Air Force F-16, piloted by Lt. Beltran Vielma, shoots down a rebel OV-10 Bronco near El Libertador Air Base during the second coup attempt of 1992, on November 27. Vielma used the M61 Vulcan cannon of his F-16 to destroy the light attack aircraft. The rebel pilot, Lt. Carlos Mictil, ejected safely and was arrested later. The Venezuelan coup attempts of 1992 were attempts to seize control of the government of Venezuela by the Hugo Chávez-led Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement-200. The first coup attempt took place on 4 February 1992, and was led by Chávez. A second coup attempt on 27 November 1992, took place while Chávez was in prison but was directed by a group of young military officers who were loyal to the Revolutionary Bolivarian Movement-200. On 27 November 1992, the OV-10s were widely used by mutinous officers who staged the second attempted coup against former President Carlos Andrés Pérez. The rebels dropped bombs and launched rockets against police and government buildings in Caracas. Four Broncos were lost during the uprising.

DogTailRed2 1st Dec 2023 15:39

https://www.super-hobby.co.uk/zdjeci...0/18925_rn.jpg


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