As Discord says the ill fated Papa India would have crossed Epsom as its first waypoint out of LHR on what in those days I think was a simple Dover One departure, I think the first SIDs were in use by then. Earlier than that one could listen to LHR departure controllers issuing the whole Instrument departure for each aircraft which was usually something like cleared IMC to XXX cross Epsom above two (thousand) Biggin above four and something along the lines of climb as directed by radar . A long time ago when nice neat looking aircraft like Swissair Convair 440s used those instructions to head off to Zurich. A bit of a joke these days as an A320 series departing on an LHR westerly could probably make about 8000 ft by Epsom if it was allowed. I must admit I thought Epsom disappeared as a beacon when Ockham VOR was activated and became one of the LHR holds. The past year must have been odd for folks who live underneath the LHR holding patterns as they probably haven't been used for a year depriving the good folk of that pricey part of the outer London area of their early morning wakeups from the Atlantic inbounds wending their way around the Ockham pattern

Prior to the introduction of SIDs outbound routes from LHR were as shown here. SIDs therefore must have appeared sometime after May 1969. The Dover 1 SID from 28L/R followed the route shown here (possibly omitting BIG), then DET - DVR.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....eb75b354ae.jpg

I noticed an Etihad 787 did a very tight left hand turn after departing 27R this morning, it passed north of Walton on Thames flying 090 and intercepted roughly the 09L/R Dover SID routing somewhere north of Croydon except at 12000' probably rather higher!

Though, looking at the track on WebTrak, he was flagged as "off-track" not because he turned too tightly, but because he didn't turn enough to stay on the NPR/SID.

What, for the 09 SID? :}

Pilot's defence - "Somebody's moved the EPM NDB again!" ;)

It was a DET2F departure off 27R, so to be classed as "on-track" he needed to stay on the relevant SID/NPR to 4000', after which ATC could send him anywhere. He diverged from the NPR over Old Windsor at about 3600'.

Overflying a different SID later at 10,000' didn't get him off the hook. :O

So he should have been turning overhead Wraysbury reservoirs?

I flew one of our younger 777s a few weeks ago on a Detling departure from LHR and noticed that it didn’t have NDB receivers fitted at all, so EPM came and went as a RNAV waypoint... :(

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....7e4317ada9.jpg

Thanks, yes, looking at an El Al 787 just departed, turned nicely over the Wraysbury reservoirs and direct towards EPM before overhead Weybridge getting a direct Koksijde by the looks of it - just passed to the north of Dover. Singapore 747 departing shortly...

Thia '45-'65 map has a trig point, and mast on the current image. https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side...&right=BingHyb
And for IFT's position this: https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side...&right=BingSat
Theres a building marked, but no antenna. One corner is marked 'revision point' so clearly part of a survey, an important location

Yes, the trig point, unsurprisingly, marks the top of a 200' hill with the masts just a few feet lower.

The mast marked on the map is a cellphone/DAB tower, not the NDB (the latter are rarely, if ever, marked on OS maps).


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8e3992886b.jpg

SIDs were already in use for Heathrow departures in March 1969 when I joined 'D Watch at West Drayton, working initially on the 'outbound' suite where a controller, designated 'DO' would pass the appproved SID to Heathrow tower when the departure was requested by them via myself and my colleagues and we would then pass the request on to 'DO',..
Papa India occured in mid 1972 when I was working in Glasgow Tower where we did pass the entire clearance to the pilot rather than just a SID name and number.

Off Rwy 24 at Manchester , very quiet day so given direct Otringham and climb , with No speed restriction. Tightened the bank angle and reduced speed to 140kts [ ATP ] . They tried to 'boxxxx' me for coming off min noise route , which were designed at 210-250 kts . They had forgotten at 140 we'd have a smaller radius of turn . We went up well so less noise , saved fuel , and time as well.
If quiet at LHR , back in the day our rented in 737-300s with all derates out could easily get above FL100 at EPM or Burnham from Westerly departures .
Chevvron , remember full clearances with readback . Never read out as fast as US controllers did , thankfully . When I retired we were getting them on Acars [ data link ] , but the 744s still had NDBs !

rgds condor .

Thanks for the clarification Chevron , I remember the pre SID rather tedious readout which I imagine just got too much for the LHR traffic load. If I recall right early on in the SID era didnt get IFR clearance at startup but as they approached the runway they had to back to LHR Clearance on 121.7 for airways clearance which probably wasnt ideal given that i presume flight deck work load approaching the runway or holding point is pretty high. I also rather liked the idea of the Something airways XXis cleared to some exotic place or other and even thats gone as its all done by data link. Another little bit of the magic of flying gone.

As an aside during my years living in Bermuda I took mum in law to the airport for the only night civil op the BA 2232 to London , LHR at the time I am referring to.
Bermuda Airport (Kindley Field as it was colloquially known) was an active US Navy airstation . The US Navy controllers filed the flight plans and gave startup clearances and then handed back to the ramp controllers, civilians, for push and taxi. . Once again airways a clearance was given just prior to take off .I was listening on my little airband as a US Navy controller cleared the BA 2232 to London via , a couple of rather fishy named waypoints, then all the Atlantic crossing waypoints and finally, Lands End , Southampton Midhurst ... at which point a very 'old fashioned' BA voice cut in with a 'Thank you, I think we can find our way from there'.

i dont think LHR would have coped with having to give everyone that treatment , but for those of us 'on the outside' much of the interest in listening to Airband once one had figured out the generality of what was going on was to hear these occasional wholly human remarks , some exasperated some amusing.

While doing my IR training, I was listening to Calgary Clearance Delivery before asking for my clearance, when we heard an American Airlines flight call up for their clearance. The controller came back with "... cleared to the Dallas Fort Worth airport via .." and then listed every intersection for the 1300 nm flight! The crew had obviously been expecting to be cleared "... via XX SID, flight-planned route", because there was a pause and then "Say again." :)

It was only Heathrow departures where DO woiud pass 'standard XXX One departure climb to flight level XXX', other airfields like Luton and Gatwick had some very quaint IFR departures eg westerley Luton departures via WOR were 'Beacon Hill, Burnham, Chersey and Dunsfold at 4,000ft, climb when instructed by London radar to flight level XXX'; for an easterley departure it was 'Brookmans Park, Kilburn, Epsom and Dunsfold at 4,000'etc.

The Leeds Bradford NDB - 'LBA' - was once co-located with the outer marker on the RW 32 ILS approach. When the outer marker was decommissioned, the NDB was moved on to the airfield itself. This move eradicated the malicious damage problem at the same time. All this happened some time in the 1990s, IIRC.