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-   -   Duxford - End of Flying Legends airshows (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/635035-duxford-end-flying-legends-airshows.html)

roger4 27th Aug 2020 19:58

I think Sywell is worth another look, despite GeeRam's well made earlier comments. It has many advantages including parallel hard and grass runways, although each are only about 80% of the length of Duxford's, and it is only around 40 miles/15 minutes flying time from Duxford to allow pilots to shuttle backwards and forwards and swop aircraft. Sywell also has an active war-bird community including restoration workshops, and the airfield has very much the right "ethos" in regard to vintage aviation with for example its art-deco era clubhouse. Sywell is also located in reasonably clear airspace away from both Luton and Stansted movements.

The logistics and costs of car-parking for say 20,000 visitors, together with all the catering and toilet etc amenities required to be brought in will be more-or-less common where-ever it relocates to and hence will probably not be a critical factor in the decision. It will of curse be a critical factor in the budget.

I was Chairman of the organising committee of a large sporting event for ten years. We relocated the event at short notice (5 weeks) due to foot-and-mouth disease closing off our usual outdoor venue, to a completely new venue. Not only did we have a very short time to make the move, the move unexpectedly resulted in a three-fold increase from around 2000 to 6000 attendees. Therefore I don't underestimate how big and daunting the task is. Small beer compared to FL perhaps, but what I would say is that where there's a will, there's a way.

GeeRam 27th Aug 2020 20:13


Originally Posted by roger4 (Post 10872142)
I think Sywell is worth another look, despite GeeRam's well made earlier comments. It has many advantages including parallel hard and grass runways, although each are only about 80% of the length of Duxford's, and it is only around 40 miles/15 minutes flying time from Duxford to allow pilots to shuttle backwards and forwards and swop aircraft. Sywell also has an active war-bird community including restoration workshops, and the airfield has very much the right "ethos" in regard to vintage aviation with for example its art-deco era clubhouse. Sywell is also located in reasonably clear airspace away from both Luton and Stansted movements.

The logistics and costs of car-parking for say 20,000 visitors, together with all the catering and toilet etc amenities required to be brought in will be more-or-less common where-ever it relocates to and hence will probably not be a critical factor in the decision. It will of curse be a critical factor in the budget.

I was Chairman of the organising committee of a large sporting event for ten years. We relocated the event at short notice (5 weeks) due to foot-and-mouth disease closing off our usual outdoor venue, to a completely new venue. Not only did we have a very short time to make the move, the move unexpectedly resulted in a three-fold increase from around 2000 to 6000 attendees. Therefore I don't underestimate how big and daunting the task is. Small beer compared to FL perhaps, but what I would say is that where there's a will, there's a way.

Sywell and Old Warden are probably the only viable 'local' options.

Sywell also does have the benefit of much more local accommodation as well, and cheaper rates than Cambridge. There's two Premier Inn's and a Travelodge in cab distance from the airfield, as well as numerous other B&B's around the north-east of Northampton and nearby Wellingborough.


roger4 27th Aug 2020 20:31

What length is OW's runway? Wikipedia reports it at 508m, which may not be accurate as this seems much shorter than I recall from visits over the last couple of years and given that they happily operate Spitfires and Hurricanes off it.

Mind you, I know the cross runway is very short, having had a close shave with the boundary hedge many moons ago in a C172 with 4 up, trying to get off grass that was longer and wetter than we appreciated - thank goodness the nosewheel hit a rabbit hole or similar and bounced us into the air......


treadigraph 27th Aug 2020 20:43

Total landing length of 21 at OW appears to be about 3000' - 03 is shorter for some reason as the southern extension beyond the estate road that crosses doesn't appear to be useable for landing, but OK for take of I presume.

posso 27th Aug 2020 21:36

Surely the answer is to move it all down the road to Stanstead, ample parking at bargain prices. Given the current much reduced levels of airline traffic all those Ryanair flights could be diverted into Duxford for the weekend.
OK the old 737 brake linings will take a bit of a hammering, but mucho cost savings in landing fees at DX compared to STN, sure MOL would be up for it!

Freefly170 28th Aug 2020 09:09

Such a shame, I love flying into Duxford and Legends is such a fantastic show, Hard to see how it could relocate in UK with so many airfields being closed or restricted. However if it does move to Europe my vote would be for Mollis, a beautiful ex Swiss AF base tucked away in the mountains not far from Zurich, absolutely stunning backdrop and they hold a show called the Zigermeet there every couple of years which usually features good participation from EU warbirds including those from the Red Bull collection.

fauteuil volant 28th Aug 2020 15:57

I note that no-one has suggested Shoreham!

treadigraph 28th Aug 2020 18:38


Originally Posted by fauteuil volant (Post 10872840)
I note that no-one has suggested Shoreham!

I'd love it to be hosted there, but...

I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

GeeRam 28th Aug 2020 19:19


Originally Posted by treadigraph (Post 10872961)
I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

I doubt it.

It will be interesting to see if there's any significant 'vote with their feet' at the Sept airshow in a few weeks time in light of what's happened?

robin 28th Aug 2020 21:12

The great things about Duxford is the runway length and access to the museum (and facilities).

Flying Legends is a long day - last time I launched at 10:00 to arrive for a 12:00 slot, spent a very hot day on the airfield, launched again at 18:40 arriving back at home airfield at 20:30 and in the pub by 21:15.

if it goes anywhere it has to be at a centrally-located airfield, with massive parking and hangars with interesting aircraft (for when it rains or is too hot)

Duxford is perfect - though a slog from the SW - so I really hope a solution can be found to stay at Duxford.

My favoured alternative would be Fairford or Kemble. Or Newquay

DHfan 28th Aug 2020 21:19


Originally Posted by treadigraph (Post 10872961)
I wonder if a "mass" protest to IWM would be of any use?

Sadly people who make that sort of decision, however obviously inane, are never wrong.

Newquay's too far away from anywhere and everywhere.

Duxford has so much going for it, I have a nasty suspicion that nowhere else is actually feasible, financially and logistically. That's for operators and attendees.

Flugplatz 28th Aug 2020 21:41

Bit left field, but what about Thorney Island or Lee-on-Solent? Thorney Island a bit better for overwater displays and lots of supporting airfiields e.g. historic Eastleigh, Goodwood, Shoreham, Southampton.

Ex FSO GRIFFO 29th Aug 2020 01:03

For What it is worth - # 48 & # 50 say it all.

I have attended on three separate occasions, visits to Duxford, amongst many of the other Aviation sites in the UK and the Continent, purely as a 'delighted tourist / enthusiast'....

All the way from OZ.

Paid my 'tourist money' / contributed to the 'Pommy' economy, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Also enjoyed the other museums / static display aircraft there as well, including, but not limited to, the 'Historic Significance'.of Duxford being Duxford..

It IS the 'Complete Package' !!

VERY Glad I got to go there whilst it was / is there...........

Perhaps 'tis time for some 'cool heads' from the Gummint to step in and give some timely advice - the 'Tourist Pounds' cannot be ignored......

jumpseater 29th Aug 2020 07:55

As far as viable and currently serviceable airfields go, Wittering could fit the bill.
Operation: Class G airspace, big currently serviceable runway, and airfield site including ATC. Reasonably centrally places for visiting aircraft. Downside, A1M crosses eastern undershoot.

Public :Easy access via A1/A14. Plenty of space for on site parking at the western end. Stamford close by for rail/bus link.

Would RAF allow site use? Dunno.

POBJOY 29th Aug 2020 08:49

Reminding the 'Suits' at Duxford
 
The Government needs to remind 'The Management Suits' at the IWM that they exist as a National facility to provide a Museum service for the Country (and indeed our Visitors) and that they are lucky that the private sector actually contribute so much in providing the 'Living past' of actual flying machines that is tech challenging and expensive.
We now take it for granted to see large numbers of historic aircraft operating in their element which would not happen if the Warbird movement did not exist.
Museums frequently end up being run to suit the Museum management, and fail to loose sight of what they really are there to do which is provide the public with the opportunity to explore the past in an affordable way, (free in Wales).
The ability to see and hear combat machines in the air is a fantastic experience and indeed a great attraction to overseas visitors, so the IWM need to 'get real' and not throw the baby out with the bath water, and accept that the benefit to 'ALL' is more important than bean counting. Effectively the Government are the paymasters so some cogent words in the right ears are needed to 'prod the suits' back to reality.
Jock Mailtland had it right at Biggin decades ago.

GeeRam 29th Aug 2020 08:54


Originally Posted by Ex FSO GRIFFO (Post 10873178)
Perhaps 'tis time for some 'cool heads' from the Gummint to step in and give some timely advice - the 'Tourist Pounds' cannot be ignored......

LOL!

No 'cool' heads in our current Govt, and they've got other things on their minds at the moment, and frankly, its such a small fry issue, it won't even register at Govt level. Plus the type of people in our Govt currently are very much of the same ilk as the lady curator at IWM, so Govt won't be on 'our' side.


GeeRam 29th Aug 2020 09:06


Originally Posted by Flugplatz (Post 10873077)
Bit left field, but what about Thorney Island or Lee-on-Solent? Thorney Island a bit better for overwater displays and lots of supporting airfiields e.g. historic Eastleigh, Goodwood, Shoreham, Southampton.

Thorney is no longer operational as an airfield, and access down the single road would be a nightmare for 40k people etc.., so not viable at all.

Lee has too much housing around it for a safe display area I would think looking at it on a map in relation to the runway?

I think Sywell or Kemble are the only likely options. Sywell is just close enough to Duxford to be seen to be keeping it local, but I'm still not convinced Sywell is that viable.
Kemble has issues as well with its proximity to Fairford, so TFC would have to look at moving the traditional Legends weekend by several weeks.

Ex FSO GRIFFO 29th Aug 2020 09:22

RE " It won't even register at Govt level......"

Where is / who is - the Local member..??
IF his / her seat came into question, then he / she = them = Govt..... might be be 'interested' after all...??


DHfan 29th Aug 2020 11:17

With the possible exception of Sywell, I can't see that any of the suggestions, however well-meaning, would be financially viable for TFC.

Without exception, they're much too far away from their home base.

POBJOY 29th Aug 2020 12:57

Political
 

Originally Posted by GeeRam (Post 10873342)
LOL!

No 'cool' heads in our current Govt, and they've got other things on their minds at the moment, and frankly, its such a small fry issue, it won't even register at Govt level. Plus the type of people in our Govt currently are very much of the same ilk as the lady curator at IWM, so Govt won't be on 'our' side.

Nice to see that you are keeping politics out of the thread !!!! Amazing so many people voted for the 'current' Gov, and they secured so many seats must be all of the same 'ILK' as you would say. However I will make a point of speaking to a Minister re the IWM position and try to get some sense into the arena, you may think it is small fry, but Duxford is a very high profile operation and attracts many overseas visitors therefore decisions taken that affect its ability to obtain best value for the UK and the 'product' it could support is very much of Gov interest, and when the CV issue is past we will still be in the UK tourist, and Museum business for which we have a good reputation.. It strikes me that the Legends has become a major attraction therefore every effort should be made to 'ENABLE' its future at its current base. It would be a major Own Goal for Duxford to loose it. They need to get the bean counters a pair of overalls and give them some 'Hangar Jobs' so they see how lucky they are to have such a rich variety of Living History on site. The whole thing beggars belief and needs some heads knocking.


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