BFU,

I can remember seeing the TSR2 at Cranfield in '72-73 is.
A group of us from NATS Bletchley had been helping move a Cranfielder's boat and we ended up in the bar there (what a surprise!). After a few drinks he took us round the collection of oddities that were stored in the hangers, the TSR2 being the culmination of the tour - he implied that it was something of a secret that it had survived the destruction of the project.

VnV...

The TSR2 at Duxford, had a lot of panel damage, this was if I remember correctly put back into order by Bae(formerlyBAC, formerly English Electric) my father in law and several other skilled people from Warton and Salmesbury spent several weeks living down in the Duxford area making and fitting by hand all the new panels that were missing from that A/c. They were picked for their skill and the fact that they had all been original prototype workers on this good looking A/c.

I stand corrected, John...I seem to recall an HS681 project which looked like a little C-141 Starlifter. Thought that the AW681 was the precursor of that. Getting me numbers muddled, I think!

You're both right. The '681 went through various evolutions before the Labour government axed it. There was a Pegasus VSTOL version (barking mad, in my view. Lift must exceed weight for VTOL - and where on earth would the necessary thrust levels to do that on a jet cargo aircraft be acceptable? ). There were other versions with Comet wings, C-141 wings...... All were much bigger than the BAe 146, incidentally.

On Mountbatten, one of his Staff penned the following ditty in 1943-44

Mountbatten was a likely lad;
A nimble brain Mountbatten had,
And this most amiable trait:
Of each new plan which came his way
He'd always claim in accents pat,
"Why I myself invented that!"
Adding when he remembered it,
For any scoffer's benefit,
Roughly the point in his career
When he'd conceived the bright idea--
As "August 1934"'
Or "Sometime during the Boer War".

When he visited CAS RAAF in the early 1960s, he pulled out three model Buccaneers telling him "You can have three of these for the price of one of these" (brandishing a model of TSR2)

I was stationed at Henlow in 1975 when XR220, the aircraft now at Cosford, was wheeled out of storage and taken to bits for transport. I managed to get a few pics, which I'm sure I still have somewhere.

The terrain following radar for TSR2 was first flown in a Dakota (TS423) by Ferranti in Edinburgh. The same aircraft featured in the TV series 'Airline' in the 80's and is now in the States. The radar never made it into TSR2 but flew regularly in a Buccaneer operated by Ferranti from Turnhouse. Despite being analogue it was very reliable and gave pilots great confidence in terrain following down to 200 feet.

wub - are you sure the TFR never made it into TSR2? I'm sure I've read/seen on video Bea Beaumont extoling the virtues of TSR2 as terrain-hugged its way at ultra low level, very smoothly, across the Pennines?

SSD

SSD

I'm sure TFR didn't make it into TSR-2. When Bee did his low level trans-Pennine flight he flew visually, it was a daylight flight after all and I believe he was accompanied by Jimmy Dell in a Lightning T5, so the terrain-following wouldn't have been too severe.

The TFR programme did continue for a while after the demise of the great white beast but it ultimately came to nothing despite having some pioneering display techniques.

I was still at school when TSR2 was cancelled (but in uniform - if CCF counts!). One of our least military english masters became famous at school for his off-the-cuff comment:

"Shelley would never have cancelled the TSR2 - it's too beautiful!"

Correct sentiment - not sure about the reason!

Shelley was ,of course, correct.

But the question is:- Could the TSR2 have done then what the Tornado (for example) is doing now? In terms of payload, range, etc etc?

Who has control?

I have mentioned this before. It has been written up by Bee Beamont, and I asked him at the signing of our prints a similar question.

His answer: "There would have been no need for Tornado at all if TSR2 had not been cancelled. It would still be the best front line aircraft today." That comment was made on 21st April last year.

He further stated that TSR2 was perfectly capable of development to Mach 2.3. Makes you think eh?

Wub - I stand corrected.

SSD

Reynolds1 -
I'm no expert, but I remember reading that the TSR2's weapons system was the first airborne application of an early digital computer. Can anyone contribute?

Website
 

I found this nice website for the TSR2...

TSR2 website

Tsr 2
 

Bit along the lines of the Nene thread but the actions of the "Government " on aviation will always be source of amazement!

Aerodocks at Southampton developed a system of aircraft recovery based on the hovercraft principle.
Very clever ( well I though so!:) ) consisted of a series double floored 8 foot square" boxing rings" that were about 2 foot thick with plates on all four sides. Each unit had a mounting for a Coventry Climax engine ( I think!) driving a big fan on the top of each unit.
You decided how many units you needed for the weight of the aircraft and then bolted 2, 4 or 6 of them together with the side plates removed where the squares butted together and mounted a Climax unit on one of the units. A skirt went all round the perimiter and "voila" a hover craft.

I was working as one of the aeroplane interface consultants getting weights, where to lift etc!. The lift was actually done by airbags on the platforms.
The first demo was on a Hermes (??) at London., across a ditch, which was of course the sales pitch that we could cross any kind of terrain ( and water)

Then I got a call to go to RAF Henlow.

I got here and there was nothing spectacular, it was an RAF grass airfield with light aircraft and gliders. We all met and went across the airfield with all our machinery to a couple of hanger right on the far side or the airport.

Well what a sight.:cool: In one hanger was a complete TSR2 and the other hanger had a guy breaking up Shackletons ( I think !!)
Well we did our party piece and lifted the TRS2 on the 2 hover platfroms, 1 under each wing, and transported it to the main airport area where it was loaded onto a low loader and sent the a RAF museum ( was it Cosford?).

The aircraft was complete and looked suberb. Another "Labour" victim!:mad:

I was tolds that particular one had flown and I have no idea how it got the Henlow but I am sure some pruner will know:) :) :)

That the nice thing about Pprune you can come up with long forgotten tales and some will always fill in the gaps !!:D :D :D

Doubtful that the one you lifted (great story by the way, never knew about that equipment!) actually flew. The one at Duxford (XR222) never flew for sure as she was number 4 off the production line. The one at Cosford (XR220) was number 2 and stood ready to make her first flight when the cancellation announcement came through. The flight crew actually went out to the aircraft to see if they could still fly it but apparently others prevented this. The only TSR2 that ever flew was shot to pieces on a firing range, bl@@dy shame!

(hope I remembered the correct numbers!)

I dont know, if it was lifted on a cushion of air, then perhaps it has "flown" after all! ...and history gets re-written:)

Nobody ever said an aircraft had to have a pilot to "fly", and one or two aircraft (RN HUnter post ejection) have proved quite capable of flight without man.

GotTheTshirt - well how about that!

I watched you load the TSR-2 onto that wagon and I took pics. It was XR220, which is now restored at Cosford, and it never flew. I have more pics which I'll scan and post later, if I can find them, so check back here for the URL. Great story too! Incidentally, it was July 1975!

http://www.pbase.com/image/11475794

GTTS- I remember reading somewhere that the RAF were considering a hovercraft based recovery system similar to the one you describe, however in this article it said that the aircraft would taxi onto the hovercraft, then move off to dispersals. It was to be used in rough/unprepared areas. Is it the same system?

Great story though-wonder what would have become of Britain's aero industry had the government not killed it off in the 60's?

Matty

wub - might I prostate myself at your feet and beg to include such photos in the galleries on my site in the TSR.2 section?

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/index.html

XR220 is indeed at Cosford and I was lucky enough to have a hand in its up keep several years ago before I joined up when I was a volunteer worker at the museum. The one that flew was XR219, now sadly gone forever.

There are several good books about the ac though the only one still in print is "TSR2 Phoenix or Folly" and it is a sad but interesting read.

Tonks:)

Wub,

I just knew someone would come up with all the detail !! Thanks.

I was sure it was complete with wings and tail when we moved it from the bottom hangar, which is why I thought it had flown it -was THAT complete.
We parked it on the apron in front of the hanger and left so I guess the RAF guys de-winged it to put on the trailer.


MME,
We were demonstrating the system for the RAF ( so I guess they got the move for free ;) )

The hover platforms on sat about 2 feet high ( except the one platform that had the power unit on - and that could be on any one of the platforms)

On top of the platform we then had the normal lifting air bags.
So we manoevered the platforms under the wings , and / or fuselage and inflated the air bags lifting the aircraft clear of the ground so it didnt matter if the aircraft was on its wheels or belly landed. Once the aircraft was clear we then started the hover units and the whole thing floated and was ready to move.
The units had no motive power so we then connected by cable to a couple of tractors and off you went. If you were where gound vehicles couldn't drive then you just ran a winch cable out from firm ground and reeled it in.

It worked as advertised on the ones I was with and of course completely air freightable.
It was of course expensive but the idea was to try and get the insurance companies to buy them and place them at key places. The sales pitch being that it cleared the airport quickly with no additional damage to the aircraft.

Must have been a good idea because no one took it up
:p :p

DamienB:
I'll send you a private message

GTTS:

I remember seeing the aircraft intact in the morning and when I returned from work that afternoon it was on the trailer. By the time I got my camera the trailer with the wing on it had gone!

Incidentally, the building in the picture was called 'The Pickle Factory', now demolished, because it was said that it had been built back to front - the large doors are on the opposite side to the airfield! and as a result, the foreman in charge of the job was 'in a pickle':D

Another interesting fact about Henlow was that the control tower was constructed from Hurricane packing cases, I believe aircraft were shipped to Henlow and assembled there, that was the story when I was there anyway.

http://www.pbase.com/image/11536845
http://www.pbase.com/image/11532330
http://www.pbase.com/image/11532343
http://www.pbase.com/image/11536712
http://www.pbase.com/image/11536722
http://www.pbase.com/image/11536972

GtTS and Wub, thanks for the posts - its stuff like this that really makes PPrune.
And TSR2, bloomin' long isn't it!

My pleasure, it's good to contact fellow enthusiasts :D

Superb pix, wub.....there was certainly a Hurricane repair section at Henlow, because that's where father did his first stint of hands-on work as an apprentice, rebuilding battle-damaged aircraft. Would have been 1940 or thereabouts; by 1941/2 he was on Wimpeys.

NoPax,

Inside the tower at Henlow was unpainted in certain places and you could clearly see stencilled things like: 'Hurricane starboard wing', followed by a reference number.

Back to the TSR2 for a sec; the terrain following radar, designed by Ferranti in Edinburgh, originally took to the air in a Dakota, TS 423, which still flies today. The funny thing about using the Dak was that the terrain climbed faster than the aircraft could!

The radar was then tested in a succession of Canberras and ultimately in the second production Buccanneer, XK 487, which hurtled about the Scottish Highlands as low as 200 feet.
I have a pic but can't post it just now, because PBase, my photo repository is down. Check back later.

Uncanny similarity to the history of the Avro Arrow. Canadians talk about that in the same tones too.

Just bought a DD video on TSR2. Excellent viewing, lots of info from Beamont. Happy to post it on in exchange for a contribution to the Pprune fund. Zat OK Don? E-mail me direct.

DOC

Chris,

Just watched a documentary on the Avro Arrow. Yes it sure was a great aircraft that suffered the same fate as the TSR2 except the Canadians managed to hang on a bit longer :( :(

I saw Darryl Zanuck ??? doing aerobatics with the Arrow in Farnborough one year ( I am sure someone will tell me which - the memeries going!)

He did the tail slide which was considered impossible for Jet ( in those days)

Good documentary ( Discovery I think)

GTTS:

Pretty sure you are imagining this. The Arrow flying programme only lasted from March 1958 till Feb 1959, when it was cancelled.

Wasn't Darrl Zanuck a film producer?

The Arrow test pilot was Janusz Zurakowski.

While flying the CF-100, Jan demonstrated a new aerobatic maneuver called the "falling leaf". This involves the aircraft doing a succession of alternating sideslips, with the appearance of a falling leaf -- a light, graceful maneuver. One would never have thought that an aircraft as heavy as the CF-100 could do such a thing but in the hands of Jan Zurakowski, it could. Jan entertained the crowd at the 1955 Farnborough Air Show in England with this manoeuvre.

Photo of Ferranti's Dakota which first flew the TSR2 radar, known as forward looking radar (FLR)

http://www.pbase.com/image/11851356

WUB,

OK you drove me to the attic !!!
A lot of it was correct.:D
It was Farnborough
It was Zurakowski ( well it did begin with Z;) )
It was doing aerobatics
It was an Avro Canada Fighter
The only error was it was the CF100
:cool: :cool:

Sorry ! (Holding hand out for smack:( )

My current Father-in-law was one of many skilled engineers to have nearly lost his job when that pipe smoking Gannex wearing jerk of our Prime minister chopped the TSR2, however he was then moved onto other A/c type with the then English Electric at Preston, however much later on he and about six others of his ilk were persuaded to go and lodge down at Duxford to carry out repairs to the cosmetics of the TSR 2 currently on view there, it seems seven very highly skilled engineers spent quite a lot of time making by hand without any plans or patterns parts to refit to this A/C, so younger folk could see what superb machinery we Brits can make, my FiL was a staunch Labourite! not now though!!;)

Anyone know which TSR2 used to be part of the College of Aeronautics collection at Cranfield? I think it was used as an avionics training airframe by the students. Must have been sometime in the '70s - I saw it during a hangar visit with my uncle who was then a lecturer at the College.

I think that it was XR 222. When I was learning to fly Cessna 150s at the Bedfordshire Air Centre in 1968, we students used to nip off to the College hanger to have a look at the treasures therein. The biggest and best was the TSR2, but there were all sorts of other very interesting items in the hangar!

Wilson, Healey and Brown weren't the chief murderers. You can blame the late Earl Mountbottom for killing off the aircraft's export potential........

BEagle,

Thanks for the info. There were indeed many aeronautical treasures in that hangar - the TSR2, a V2 rocket and the Morane-Saulnier Paris (G-APRU?) stick in my memory.

What a pity that the collection had to be dispersed to make room for more modern hardware. To coin a phrase - Where Are They Now? :confused:

TSR-2 (Merged)
 

This is probably a silly question, but does anyone know if the TSR2 was given a name (or if one was under consideration for it)?

I'd always assumed that the cancellation of the project meant that naming was never considered. However, I was re-reading notes I'd taken at the PRO about the RAF's intended procurement of the F-111 (which would've been called 'Merlin' in RAF service, BTW) and realised that policy at the time called for a name to be considered either at first flight or when the contract was placed. So did anyone ever consider naming the beast?

Healey's Folly?

SSD

Don't forget Jenkins and Callaghan. :mad:

At the signing of the TSR2 prints I sell for the PPRuNe Fund, 'Bee' Beamont told me that although there would never have been any need for Tornado if the TSR2 had not been cancelled, Tornado might have been a appropriate name for it - but maybe tongue in cheek, it was hard to tell.

But he was very cynical about the above trio and very angry too!