Thanks for putting the record straight WHBM. We thought of it as a 748 replacement.
I don't remember considering using the M45H but I do remember, after the 146 had several years in service, someone in authority asking us to consider using two R-R Tays. We said, more or less "if that's what you want you can't start from here" and referred them to (by then) our Weybridge office where they had investigated a Tay-powered 1-11.

Isn't that called the Fokker F100 ? :)

And a very fine aircraft.

Not necessarily. :O

Farnborough Show 1990:

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....c41ad2d4a1.jpg

Not exactly the most successful of programmes. :O

Dee Howard and the Tay 1-11

Next to the BPR/noise issue mentioned above, have a look at the timeline. The VFW614 first flew in 1971, the BAe146 in 1981. Ten years later they were looking for a different generation of engine. Another one is that the M45H engine was developed for a very specific short stage length. The BAe146 was aimed at a more flexible market.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5b39ea6d4b.jpg

There were thoughts

and some others


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....84a69244ee.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....78cf635530.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6375ccb4c8.jpg

What is BPR, please?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bypass_ratio

I get the eventual launch date issue, but the HS146 was "launched" in 1973, so the RR engine must have surely been in the mixing pot as a developable option? Most "launch" engines eventually get improved (including BRP)....one only has to look at the M45H's bigger cousin the RB211

Those images above are superb, although I have to say, the 146 looks much better, more purposeful, with 4 pods rather than 2.

Have a soft spot for the 146 having enjoyed many flights on Meridiana's 146's into and out of FLR

How does this one fit in the BAe146 history?

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....42750dc2af.jpg

BAe146 first flight cover

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2e9cc24f4.jpeg

The QSTOL looks as though it owed more than a little to the 1-11!

Must've been about 1987/8 that Talkdownman and I plus a couple of others flew up to Hatfield to visit the '146 production line.

I did the 146 production several times during open days which I think usually coincided with the PFA Fly In at Cranfield, 1983 and 1984 certainly and probably on several later occasions. Recall a Guppy doing a low pass (and a Fred Olsen Electra coincidentally flying over out of Heathrow!) as well plus the DH-88 displaying as it was based there - it eventually got slightly bent when it ground-looped at one of these events, cue another rebuild!

Somewhat ashamed that my colleagues were involved in designing the de Havilland Campus which consumed the hallowed site a couple of decades ago, but such is the price of progress...

How does this one fit in the BAe146 history?
The QSTOL looks as though it owed more than a little to the 1-11!

Could be; several ideas from the BAC and HSA design studies with government research funding.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....addb80aff1.jpg


Hatfield open day 1980

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3pzfwx0oo18vyip/Hatfield open day 1980.pdf?dl=0

Loved flying on the 146 - Dan Air used it on IT charters at night IBZ and PMI and Manx on Ski flights.
Capital had a couple.
Palmair had a nice example flying from BOH SOU EXT and JER to the Med.
Aegean in the Greek Islands.

Brymon were shown the demo 146 (BAF colours) but went with the Dash 7.

Looking forward to possibly flying one again from Punta Arenas to King George Island to join an Antarctica Grand Circle expedition cruise to go below 66 degrees South - saves throwing up for 3 days in the Drake Passage.
Aerovias DAP have about 6 146's and a few in store.

This was at that time commonly overflown at quite low altitude by inbound traffic from Scotland/Ireland to London City, Scot Airways Dorniers etc, from which I got good views over time of the demolition, raw earth, and then rebuilding. There wasn't a radio point there or anything, but it was just on a line heading to transit overhead Lambourne VOR. Routing has changed now to a much wider loop, out beyond Southend, and often (bizarrely, coming from such a direction) with a view of the French coast.

To be precise, the 146 was in design (with the ALF502) in 1973 when I arrived at Hatfield as a brand new graduate, and then it was "put on ice" at about the end of 1974 as feedback from airlines indicated that it was "ahead of its time" (and I suspect the 1973 oil crisis had something to do with it). I left HSA in 1975 and was pleasantly surprised to see a 146 flying in 1984 for Dan Air in (sort of) RAF colours (who had trialled two).

To me the surprising thing was that they persevered with the ALF502 when they resurrected it. The delay could have been used to that end?

The Emb C390 is also pretty close, and it's in production.

In 1981 I was dispatched to Hatfield to do a report evaluating the BAe146 for European/North African operations, mainly ACMI, using De Havilland's predicted performance figures.

I made a lot of the claim, as did BAe, that a complete spare engine could be carried in the hold, enabling fast return to service if a change were needed away from base (SEN).

The Chairman read the report, looked at me and in his inimitable fashion said "You stupid prat, why the f**k do you think it's important to carry a spare?" I muttered about lower costs of recovery, blah, blah.

"It's because those f*****g Lycoming engines are designed for helicopters and are f*****g unreliable".

That was the last we heard of the BAe 146.

I wonder why the aforementioned Chairman (who some of us can take a guess at, principally by the language :) ) thought that a brand-new (as it would have been in 1981), technically unknown anywhere aircraft would do well in the ACMI market, where said Chairman had considerable success, but with long superannuated, known Dart-powered, cheap to buy, easy to stand down for some months, aircraft. Let alone if he knew it was a no-no, why spend the money on the expenses to conduct such a study.

Incidentally, that airline did pick up several used examples in the mid-1990s, by when they were available at a considerably discounted price, plus there was 10 years of engineering experience, and use them for exactly such work.

BWA only ever had two, probably for a special contract, same as the ATRs.
Keegan wouldn't have had to pay for the survey as Bae would have been falling over themselves to sell him some,same as they were falling over themselves trying to get Jack Walker to take some of the unwanted 146s which were lying around for JEA in the mid 90s (he told me himself)
Also a "technically unknown" aircraft would be the last thing an airline would want to wet lease

Loganair had 2 as well - G-OLCA and G-OLCB. MAN based but did IT flights on a weekend - one of which went down to SEN to do a a SEN-AGP. The MAN based one did a double MAN-AGP and I remember an overnight delay on the AGP-MAN sector as we arrived to check in just as the first AGP-MAN was taking off.

Dan-Air had a couple of the early, short ones. Must have been around 1984, when flying Palma to Gatwick, a Dan-Air, one was taxying out at Palma in front of our transfer bus, at a time when they were still a novelty, and commented on. Arriving at Gatwick, there it apparently was on stand. Seemed a pretty low capacity aircraft for such a trunk route. Only much later did I find they were the two separate aircraft, the first was operating a weekend charter to (I think) Teesside, the second was standing between operations from Gatwick on Dan-Air's oddball schedules to Berne etc.

Much later I became a regular on one of this pair, frame number 6, around 1997, which had by then passed to Cityjet and was their first aircraft on London City to Dublin when I was a weekly regular. It had bright orange seats, I don't know if those were the originals. Shortly afterwards it became Bernie Ecclestone's business jet, and turned up at wherever Formula One racing was taking place for many years afterwards, I think based at Biggin Hill.

I have enjoyed reading all the views of the 146. I was a Captain and then training Captain for 8 years on type. It was a very happy and fun time. I was there during the early days of a new operation into Innsbruck and Chambery. We didn't shave going into those places in those days! When the operation first started we had to go down there for real base training with the CAA. Of course there was also the operation into Bern which was also very interesting.
The 146 certainly had its faults. (I had 4 engine failures in 8 years) but whatever people think it was great fun to operate especially on the routes, as mentioned, for which it was perfect. If you want to read more of my time on the 146 and others, it's in my book. " That's fast enough".

That's very interesting. I flew the 146 for 19 years and only had ONE engine failure.

I flew in one of those Dan Air aircraft Gatwick - Newcastle - Bergen - Stavanger and return in late 1984. I also flew in one on the Gatwick - Berne run but I'm not sure when.

Grumpy - Quote 'If you want to read more of my time on the 146 and others, it's in my book. " That's fast enough".'

Where can I obtain a copy ?

Cheers Tom.

Amazon or Waterstones. Just enter the title. Any problems PM me.

Thanks - I've ordered a copy.

Grumpy. I remember that you were one of the stars of a book about the 146 circa 1986

Yes! You can't keep a good man down! I still have my copy!!

I guess it's this one: https://amzn.to/3UaFYSu
Did you have anything to do with VC10s perhaps? That would make it easier for me to smuggle it into the house past my better half...;)

Yes, that's the one. No, I didn't have anything to do with VC10s but I knew a man who flew them. I did a lot of stuff from the HS748 to the 747.​​​​​ Regarding the smuggling problem, I use an empty cardboard box and if anything is said just tell the Missus it's Christmas soon and she shouldn't look.

Much of my library was steadily consigned to the attic, as household size rose from one to two, and then when there's two ... it has a habit of increasing to three, and ...

However, this is, fortunately, the time of year when the aforementioned Christmas decorations have to be extracted from the selfsame attic. Which is a chance to rediscover things, possibly at length.

"Taking a long time up there, you OK ?"
"Just moving some things around here ... um ... er ... making space for the garden furniture over the winter, you know".
"Not reading those old aeroplane books, are you ?"
"Oh NO dear ...".

"Taking a long time up there, you OK ?"
"Just moving some things around here ... um ... er ... making space for the garden furniture over the winter, you know".
"Not reading those old aeroplane books, are you ?"
"Oh NO dear ...".

Brilliant!!!

She's starting to get suspicious.... just carried box no.14 inside. The only Christmas prezzie I could think of is a new tube of toothpaste, do you think she'll notice?

I doubt it. 14 is a fairly unnoticeable amount at Christmas. Just don't mix up the toothpaste with the haemorrhoid cream.

Guys I'm looking for Avro 146 RJ FCOM V4 (4A & 4B) pdf which is the differences between RJ and BAe. Does any one of you guys have that? If so I'd appreciate with best regards 🙏🏻